Would you ignore this?

[Jerry Hall]

At one time, Eddie had Wiseco put those lubricating holes in his pistons. They can't hurt, but if all parts are working correctly, not necessary.

Drilling oil holes would not have prevented the seizure in the above picture

[jcs003]

Drilling oil holes would not have prevented the seizure in the above picture

you are right about that.haha  something went wrong beyond a lubrication issue.

john

[Jerry Hall]

Has anyone tried the "Wet Oil Line Method" for jetting? The theory seems sound but it is more tedious and time consuming than the traditional plug chop.

http://www.702sportbikes.com/showthread.php?14147-Two-Stroke-Jetting-The-Wet-Oil-Line-Method

Using the wet line method for jetting is like watching the height of the “mixture ring” from the intersection of the steel spark plug shell and the porcelain cone that surrounds the center electrode. Neither of these two methods can indicate when the engine is making maximum power nor guarantee you will not hurt the piston. These two methods rely on watching the operating temperature of a remote surface that can be easily changed without changing the combustion temperature.  Only a stopwatch, a dyno, an acceleratometer, another vehicle of comparable performance can be used to measure or indicate when an engine is making maximum power.
 
The wet line method assumes that all two-stokes make the same exhaust temperature at WOT, ¾ throttle, ½ throttle and ¼ throttle. The wet line method assumes that the inside surface of the exhaust port operates at the same temperature whether the cylinder is liquid cooled, air-cooled with the exhaust port facing forward or air-cooled with the exhaust port facing to the rear. The wet line method assumes that all exhaust system designs operate at the same efficiency. The wet line method assumes that all two-strokes scavenge the same. The wet line method assumes all things are equal between all two strokes regardless of the manufacture.

A well-developed engine will start losing power most of the time when it is too lean without hurting the piston. An engine that has the wrong ignition timing, the wrong shape combustion chamber, a pipe that is not in complete harmony with the engine or using the wrong octane fuel, can make the engine go into detonation, then hurt a piston even when it is rich.

Make it easy on yourself and just tune the carburetor to where the engine runs well and monitor the spark plug and or piston crown for signs of detonation. If you engine has the piston to cylinder wall clearance set correctly for the coolant temp that you operate your engine, you will not usually hurt a piston until the engine starts experiencing detonation.

I have been tuning two-stroke engines for over 40 years and have not found any one method that is accurate by it’s self for determining the optimum jetting. We have to simultaneously use at least 3 of 5 senses that God gave us (Sight, hearing, feel, a stop watch or a dyno) to jet a two stroke optimally.

[Tbone07]

IMO if drilling holes in your piston for better lubrication is the only thing that keeps your engine from seizing, then you have larger problems on your hands.

Honestly Ryan I still think you're not running enough of that Amsoil in your gas. I'm a big skeptic of that 50:1 or 100:1 ratio or whatever it is they recommend/guarantee.

[hickwheeler]

Honestly Ryan I still think you're not running enough of that Amsoil in your gas. I'm a big skeptic of that 50:1 or 100:1 ratio or whatever it is they recommend/guarantee.

I tend to agree with you. I've never would think of trying to run mix ratios like amsoil  recommends

[rablack21]

IMO if drilling holes in your piston for better lubrication is the only thing that keeps your engine from seizing, then you have larger problems on your hands.

Honestly Ryan I still think you're not running enough of that Amsoil in your gas. I'm a big skeptic of that 50:1 or 100:1 ratio or whatever it is they recommend/guarantee.

I tend to agree with you. I've never would think of trying to run mix ratios like amsoil  recommends

When you are comparing oil ratios, you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Amsoil starts out at a higher viscosity than an oil that is recommended to be mixed 32:1. When they are both mixed with gas,at different ratios, they end up at the same viscosity when ready to use. At 50:1, Amsoil meets and exceeds the same oil lubricant requirements that every other oil on the market has to meet. The difference is you are getting a higher concentration of lubricating oil per bottle. Some oils have to cut their formulations (base stock plus additives) with chemicals to help make the formula more miscible and combust more cleanly. Because of this more, a lower oil ratio needs to be used to maintain the same level of protection.

On a side note, racers have been using higher ratios than 32:1 and 20:1 for years without complaints of their engines tearing up.I realize that 2 stroke quads may have not been using them for that long, mainly cause their not around as much anymore, but 2 stroke dirt bikes have been using higher oil ratios for a long time. It is not heresy to them, it is common practice. Not saying everyone does it, but alot of them.  I sold out of all the Dominator I had at the race this weekend. I asked everyone of my customers, "what oil ratio do you run?" 50:1 was the response of all of them. Yes, even top level guys that run nationals. This is not to argue, just food for thought.

Aside from that, if I have an issue with the oil, I have peace of mind knowing that I can take it up with Amsoil. I don't know what happened with the customer in the story in the first part of this thread, but if there is a failure with the oil, they will cover it.  Or if there is a recommendation that does not meet certain conditions, they want to know about it. They research and study these things very heavily. I spoke with them about this very issue a few days ago. They said that if the cause of failure cannot be determined by a failed part due to manufacturing defect, they will cover the cost even if the oil has been tested and resulted to still have it's lubricating properties. Yes, even in a 2 stroke, the residual oil in the engine can be analyzed. Basically, even if they can't find anything wrong with the engines parts or the oil, they will STILL cover the customer to keep their customers happy. I run Amsoil cause no other oil company other there offers this.

This thread has gotten really side tracked into alot of different ideas. To get back to the original thread subject, I sanded the piston down, put new rings in, and put the engine back together. I ran the engine at my race this weekend. I had no issues of overheating. As long as the quad is moving, it's happy. This indicates that my issue has been radiator capacity and air flow related due to the bigger bore and not actually an air leak or coolant system leak. This is good news. You guys talking about lubricating holes, you should start a new thread and discuss it. I think it would be interesting, but would be easier to search with it's own thread title.

[Tbone07]

Look at the color of the big end of your connecting rod.  I would not be surprised if the rod shows a slightly darker color in the area where the rod surrounds the crank pin.  If this area is a little darker, this is a sign of insufficient lubrication and insufficient oil film thickness to transfer heat to the crank pin and crank webs.  The bore and the rest of the piston skirt show some lubrication problems.

I would suggest that you take an oiled stone like you use to sharpen a knife and polish off the scuffed spot, put the engine back together, increase the amount of oil you put in the fuel and go racing.

When you are comparing oil ratios, you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Amsoil starts out at a higher viscosity than an oil that is recommended to be mixed 32:1. When they are both mixed with gas,at different ratios, they end up at the same viscosity when ready to use. At 50:1, Amsoil meets and exceeds the same oil lubricant requirements that every other oil on the market has to meet. The difference is you are getting a higher concentration of lubricating oil per bottle. Some oils have to cut their formulations (base stock plus additives) with chemicals to help make the formula more miscible and combust more cleanly. Because of this more, a lower oil ratio needs to be used to maintain the same level of protection.

On a side note, racers have been using higher ratios than 32:1 and 20:1 for years without complaints of their engines tearing up.I realize that 2 stroke quads may have not been using them for that long, mainly cause their not around as much anymore, but 2 stroke dirt bikes have been using higher oil ratios for a long time. It is not heresy to them, it is common practice. Not saying everyone does it, but a lot of them.  I sold out of all the Dominator I had at the race this weekend. I asked everyone of my customers, "what oil ratio do you run?" 50:1 was the response of all of them. Yes, even top level guys that run nationals. This is not to argue, just food for thought.

I understand the difference in viscosity when mixed. I just don't believe "Amsoil meets and exceeds the same oil lubricant requirements that every other oil on the market has to meet" claim.....says who? Amsoil themselves? Sounds like a good marketing scheme but I always question companies that make these bold claims. Kind of like "Simply the Best"..........

National racers using ratios higher than 32:1 are changing their top-ends much more frequently than your average Joe. I think if you expect any longevity out of a top-end then it's a good idea to run more oil than a national level racer.
Have you ever tried running 32:1?

[rablack21]

I understand the difference in viscosity when mixed. I just don't believe "Amsoil meets and exceeds the same oil lubricant requirements that every other oil on the market has to meet" claim.....says who? Amsoil themselves? Sounds like a good marketing scheme but I always question companies that make these bold claims. Kind of like "Simply the Best"..........

National racers using ratios higher than 32:1 are changing their top-ends much more frequently than your average Joe. I think if you expect any longevity out of a top-end then it's a good idea to run more oil than a national level racer.
Have you ever tried running 32:1?

If they did not meet the regulation standards, they would not be able to sell the oil. That's basic for most all lubricants sold in any market. You say you don't believe they meet and/or exceed same oil requirements. Have you ever seen any data that showed that they do not? What makes it a scheme, because they sell through dealer and not massive chain stores? Hate to tell ya, but alot of good companies do this.
Yes, I agree. national racers do tear their stuff down more often. There was just a reference. Most of my customers this weekend are the guys that are paying for their own stuff trying to take care of their race equipment as best as possible. These are the ones that like the longevity and protection they get from Amsoil.

Yes, I have ran 32:1 before. Not really sure why that matters.

[Tbone07]

If they did not meet the regulation standards, they would not be able to sell the oil. That's basic for most all lubricants sold in any market. You say you don't believe they meet and/or exceed same oil requirements. Have you ever seen any data that showed that they do not? What makes it a scheme, because they sell through dealer and not massive chain stores? Hate to tell ya, but alot of good companies do this.
Yes, I agree. national racers do tear their stuff down more often. There was just a reference. Most of my customers this weekend are the guys that are paying for their own stuff trying to take care of their race equipment as best as possible. These are the ones that like the longevity and protection they get from Amsoil.

Yes, I have ran 32:1 before. Not really sure why that matters.

I was just curious if you have run 32:1 over the lifetime of a top-end as opposed to 50:1. Being that all other variables are the same, I wonder what the effects would be.

I understand all oil sold must meet regulatory requirements. And no I haven't seen any data that proves Amsoil wrong, but then again I haven't seen any data that substantiates their claims. I would definitely be open to reading that though. Like I said I want to believe that the claims are true, I just always question companies that make bold claims. I take everything with a grain of salt.

[udontknowme]

ive always thought 32:1 to be insufficient. got no personal evidence to support it but thats my thought. too much oil never killed a engine so i mix it real  heavy. probly the only thing in gordon jennings book i put much value in was his oil test. you cant convince me to use less oil. stop trying to persaude him to use more oil :congratulatory:

[Jerry Hall]

.........................Yes, I have ran 32:1 before. Not really sure why that matters...................

If you stay with two strokes long enough at the high ratios and have engines that produce a lot of power at high RPM, you will eventually find what other have found with oil ratios that you have been innocently coerced into running.

[rsss396]

Ski-doo in attempt to run leaner oil ratios has special sealed crank bearings with ultra expensive grease and they have probably the highest crank issues in the industry

[Jerry Hall]

We rebuild 5 to 10 two stroke crankshafts and bore 10 to 20 cylinders a week and have done so for over 30 years.  I always ask what type of air filter, air filter oil they are using, what type of premix oil they have been using and at what ratio. We also ask how much time there is on the crank or cylinder bore.  Using this data we see patterns and trends that have guided us in our recommendations to customers that ask questions on how they can prevent recurring failures on crank shafts, pistons and cylinder wall damage.

After rebuilding over 10,000 crankshafts the number one cause of premature connecting rod bearing failure is dirt getting past the air filter.  The number two reason for premature crank failure is high premix ratios.  The third most common reason for premature crank failure is the brand of oil.  High milage is seldom a common factor cause of crank failure.

Summarizing the data we have gathered on the ranking order of connecting rod bearing and main bearing failures are:

1. Dirt getting into the engine.
2. High premix oil ratios
3.  Brand of premix oil
4.  Milage on the part.


After over boring 20,000 cylinders we have also observed trends as to why the piston failed or the reason the cylinder needed boring.

1.  Dirt getting into the engine.
2.  Burned pistons as a result of improper jetting, fuel starvation or fuel whose octane rating was too low.
3.  High premix oil ratios.
4.  Operating the engine in a manner that is not matched with the design intent or purpose of the engine
5.  Brand of premix oil.
6.  Milage.


Our observed trends for reasons for engine failure seem to match up with the recommendations that can be found in the first few pages in the owners manuals for any of these vehicles.

Keep the air filter clean and oiled properly,  use fresh fuel of the proper octane rating at a mixture of 20:1 that meets the manufacture's lubrication requirements and operate the vehicle in a manner for which it was designed.  

I do not remember ever seeing a two stroke oil of any brand that would not meet the engine manufacturer's lubrication requirements.  I have seen a trend in engine failures for customers using oils and where the oil manufacture says "You do not have to use as much of our oil because our lubricating properties are superior to other oils on the market".  

The majority of the oils that our industry uses are packaged by the major oil refiners.  The remainder of the aftermarket oil companies buy their oil and additives from the major oil refiners and blend and package their product or wave their magic wand over the pipe as oil it is flowing from the refiners tank into their private label package.

[udontknowme]

i think its a wasted effort to try and convince someone to use a specific amount or type of oil. people will do what they want to do regardless what evidence is put in their face. the best example is wiseco cranks. theyre a time bomb but people still buy em even after seeing pictures of when they fly apart