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Author Topic: off set  (Read 23263 times)

Offline fearlessfred

off set
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2015, 01:13:29 PM »
just want to be clear,Im not trying to discourage the use of 4+1 wheels ,just pointing out that they have a purpose and that the have nothing to do with bumpsteer.Bumpsteer is the change in wheel direction as the a arms go through there travel and wheel offset does not change the amount of bump they have. The affects of wheels that are too offset may be worse than bumpsteer.Also the tire height has an effect on what the offset should be.

Offline fearlessfred

off set
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2015, 01:16:23 PM »
You are running spacers on the front?

Offline Victork

off set
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2015, 02:13:32 PM »
Sorry i meant the spacers on the axle. Im going to run 21in tires in the front and 20 in the rear.

Offline Burns363R

off set
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2015, 02:18:41 PM »
Off set of rims will exaggerate bump steer. Anyone that says other wise does not have a clue what they are talking about.

Bump steer is all in the geometry relationships between the tie rod mounts and the a arm mounts.   Wheel off set cannot fix bump steer.

But greater off set will exaggerate bump steer and feed back through to the bars.
TRX 363R 02- Laeger Narrow Frame/CR500 Link, Motowoz Suspension, Roll Design +4 LT Arms,RPM Dominator +4 axle, LED 363 MX, LED 350G Pipe, 38 A/S CR Ignition

TRX 370R 86- Laeger Std,ISF-No Link Swinger, JD MGC LT Arms) Motowoz Shocks, LED 370/350D pipe, 38 PWK Carb, CR Ignition

Offline rk88r

off set
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2015, 02:51:05 PM »
Quote from: Victork;51157
I think 47 is pretty good . So you put both of the spacers on the axle on the outside of the hub with stock offset and youre about 47 is what youre saying rk?

Yes
\'99 Laeger narrow, cr link, +3+1 protrax, Peps, with a LED 363
\'88 265 pv peps
One other \'88

Offline rk88r

off set
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2015, 03:01:20 PM »
Quote from: fearlessfred;51163
If you are running stock height tires ,the stock offset would be best,if your running short mx tires 4+1 would work best. Wheel offset has nothing to do with bumpsteer .from the factory with stock height tires the wheels have a slight amount of scrub which gives you a feel for the terrain and makes the tires some what self centering.4+1s with stock height tires put the tires in a neutral position with no scrub and no self centering ,some people like this feel. When running short tires 4+1s correct the change in scrub and put it back to were the factory had it.look up kingpin inclination and you may understand what Im saying.[/QUOT

The 4-1 rims that I have measured (itp) put the center of the tire closer to the stock location than 3-2 rims.
\'99 Laeger narrow, cr link, +3+1 protrax, Peps, with a LED 363
\'88 265 pv peps
One other \'88

Offline rk88r

off set
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2015, 03:09:33 PM »
Rim comparison

Stock 5.5" wide, actual offset 3 3/4-1 3/4, tire center 1" in from hub face.

Itp t-9 4-1 5" wide, actual offset 3 3/4-1 1/4, tire center 1 1/4" in from hub face.

Itp t-9 3-2 5" wide, actual offset 2 3/4- 3 1/4, tire center 1/4" in from hub face.
\'99 Laeger narrow, cr link, +3+1 protrax, Peps, with a LED 363
\'88 265 pv peps
One other \'88

Offline fearlessfred

off set
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2015, 03:46:30 PM »
Quote from: rk88r;51184
Rim comparison

Stock 5.5" wide, actual offset 3 3/4-1 3/4, tire center 1" in from hub face.

Itp t-9 4-1 5" wide, actual offset 3 3/4-1 1/4, tire center 1 1/4" in from hub face.

Itp t-9 3-2 5" wide, actual offset 2 3/4- 3 1/4, tire center 1/4" in from hub face.
that is great info and should be in a sticky. I don't run 3+2 ,even my wife can tell the difference in handling with 3+2s I bought a used ltr with 3+2s and she rode my ltr with stock rims and then she rode the other she stopped me after about a mile and told me to change out the wheels on her bike

Offline Victork

off set
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2015, 10:13:14 PM »
I found a great deal on front and rear hiper tech 3s for 685 shipped for all 4 but the offset is 3+2  front and 3+5 rear. Honestly my only worry is being too wide in the woods and not so much on best possible handling or bumpsteer as i have a steering stabilizer.  With my +2 arms and 2+2 axle  what will front and rear width be, (axle adj narrow)? Never cared to pay attention to offset until now so im a newb in the offset area

Offline D Bergstrom

off set
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2015, 05:30:50 PM »
Wheel offset has no effect on bumpsteer. Bumpsteer by definition is the change in toe through the suspension travel. As Burns stated, bumpsteer is the geometry between the tie rods, frame mounts, spindles, etc, but wheel offset is not one of the variables that effect bumpsteer. Doesn’t matter what wheel offset you have, the bumpsteer measurement will remain the same. Bumpsteer will try and turn the quad without you turning the handle bars. If you have a front end with a bunch of bumpsteer and you ride hard through a rough section, the quad will wander around.

What wheel offset does effect is feedback though the bars. A 3:2 offset wheel will give more feedback through the bars then a 4:1 offset wheel, simply because the wheel extends out from the hub further. So if something hits the outside of the wheel, there is more leverage that can be applied to the spindle, causing more feedback to the bars. So again, bumpsteer doesn’t change with wheel offset choice, wheel offset effects feedback through the bars. I guess if you have a low offset wheel and a high bumpsteer front end, then feedback through the bars could be even worse, but bumpsteer is the same no matter what offset wheel you have. I guess you could say feedback through the bars could be exaggerated with a low offset wheel and high bumpsteer front end, but feedback increases, bumpsteer stays the same.

To the OP’s original question, since you have a LSR 2+2 axle, I believe you only have two options for rear width. The widest you can make the rear is 50”, but if you swap spacers around, the narrowest you can get is 48”. For better cornering, you always want the front wider than the rear, so that limits how narrower you can make the front. With +2 arms, the only way to get the front wider then the rear is 3:2 offset wheels, from my experience with a 250R, that should get you right around 49” wide in the front. If your axle is already set to the widest position, then you will still be slightly narrower then what you are no, so should have no problem fitting through the woods you already ride through. ("Woods width" varies greatly. Some need 46, while others have no issues with 50". Just depends on where you ride.) With a 4:1 offset front wheel, the front will be narrower than the rear with your current rear axle.

It’s not the end of the world to run a 3:2 wheel, I used to swap between 4:1 and 3:2 wheels on my 250R depending on the width I wanted. Yes, there was a difference, but it wasn’t huge, I felt the extra width was well worth any extra feedback I felt through the bars. (Again, it wasn’t much, but I did notice it in some cases.) Same thing with the front to rear width. Yes, you should have the front wider, but it’s not a huge difference. I used to run my 450R as wide as possible, ended up the rear was wider. Never thought the quad cornered great, but wasn’t bad. Once I swapped spacers around to narrow up the rear, the quad did corner better, but it’s not like it went from cornering horrible to cornering great, it just improved cornering some.

Doug
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 07:04:57 PM by D Bergstrom »
2004 TRX450R, 2008 TRX700XX
(BITD #639 Quad Ironman Expert)
 
2017 sponsors: Teixeiratech.com, Motowoz.com, Snailmotorsports.com, My bank account.
 
2008 TRX700XX
2005 TRX450R
1986 TRX250R

Offline Tbone07

off set
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2015, 06:50:00 PM »
The width you want also depends on the type of tracks you're riding or racing on. Some tracks are tighter than others.

There's a big difference between my local CRA XC courses (tighter), and the national GNCC races (more wide open). I'm at 47.5" and I like where i'm at.

Standard width frame with +2 a-arms and 4:1 offset wheels would be what I would run if I were you. Not too narrow not too wide.

I run almost identical width in the rear, maybe a hair narrower
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Offline Victork

off set
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2015, 07:11:47 PM »
So the narrowest i can get the rear is 48in? Is that 3+5 offset? Can i get the front 48in?

Offline D Bergstrom

off set
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2015, 07:17:39 PM »
Quote from: Victork;51252
So the narrowest i can get the rear is 48in? Is that 3+5 offset? Can i get the front 48in?

My guess would be 48", but not positive on your exact axle setup. What rear wheels do you have on there now? Most common offset for a rear wheel is 3:5. Look where your axle spacers are and what rear wheels you have and measure what your current width is, from there you can figure out every possible combination with a little math. Once you figure out the rear, you will have a better idea of what you can do with the front.

Doug
2004 TRX450R, 2008 TRX700XX
(BITD #639 Quad Ironman Expert)
 
2017 sponsors: Teixeiratech.com, Motowoz.com, Snailmotorsports.com, My bank account.
 
2008 TRX700XX
2005 TRX450R
1986 TRX250R

Offline Victork

off set
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2015, 08:59:48 PM »
Ok i measured a little. The rear rims i think are silver oem and look like 3 3/4+5 1/4 combined with the half inch spacers inside sits just under 48. The front was measured with the bike on the stand wheels hanging but they look like 3+2(ams are  weird in the center to measure) and at the widest point which is the bottom of the tires is at 48in

Offline fearlessfred

off set
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2015, 09:25:30 PM »
Quote from: Burns363R;51180
Off set of rims will exaggerate bump steer. Anyone that says other wise does not have a clue what they are talking about.

Bump steer is all in the geometry relationships between the tie rod mounts and the a arm mounts.   Wheel off set cannot fix bump steer.

But greater off set will exaggerate bump steer and feed back through to the bars.
God himself could tell you that wheel offset has nothing to do with bumpsteer and you would not believe it,I will make a video so you can see and understand it

 

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