TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: hontrx265r on October 25, 2013, 01:55:42 AM
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Opened the intake to find this spun sleeve. We will see how the mfg handles the issue tomorrow and report back. Anyone else had this happen. Its a 310 kit. (http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/mgsytsma/20131024_213526_resized_zps7b368352.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/mgsytsma/media/20131024_213526_resized_zps7b368352.jpg.html)]http:// (http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/mgsytsma/media/20131024_213526_resized_zps7b368352.jpg.html)
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Wtf causes that?
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Its not a stock cylinder but I've already considered going back to one.
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That does suck weiner! But if that is who, I think it might be from, give him a call. He will make it right for you. :joyous:
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Opened the intake to find this spun sleeve. We will see how the mfg handles the issue tomorrow and report back. Anyone else had this happen. Its a 310 kit. (http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/mgsytsma/20131024_213526_resized_zps7b368352.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/mgsytsma/media/20131024_213526_resized_zps7b368352.jpg.html)]http://
There are only two things that will allow the sleeve to be in the position shown. It was installed that way or the interference fit was too loose. Either way.......there is no excuse for shoddy workmen ship.
I cannot see how far the sleeve has rotated. If it has rotated too much, the piston rings may be snagging in one of the transfer ports.
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first vid is explanatory and a bit funny. second vid has a remedy/insurance policy on the resleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghlbCaZQjDc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCSKfLarKR4
john
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Jerry I was going to bring it over to you but I'm going to give the mfg a chance to make it right. I spoke with them this morn I'm going to send it out this afternoon.
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tool marks in the aluminum appear to match whats on the sleeve. im thinking it was put in that way
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/doddledo/facepalm_zpsea1e6433.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/doddledo/media/facepalm_zpsea1e6433.jpg.html)
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I think your seeing the reflection in the sleeve. I'm 99% sure this is a fitment issue and it rotated while running. I'm right with jerry on the incorrect interference fit. Pretty sure it will arrive to them on monday so I should have some news soon.
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you got the jug in your garage. what better view can you get. if the tools marks match whats on the sleeve then obviously it was installed like that. if they dont match then probly it rotated
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The tool marks on the cylinder are reflecting on the face of the sleeve, the tool marks on the edge of the sleeve match the porting on the cylinder, it rotated
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i looked at it again and see what you meen. the reflection is exact opposite of the cylinder tool marks which makes perfect sense. appears to be rotated for sure.
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first vid is explanatory and a bit funny. second vid has a remedy/insurance policy on the resleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghlbCaZQjDc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCSKfLarKR4
john
If the interference fit is correct "pinning" the sleeve is not necessary. Pinning just make sleeve removal more time consuming if the sleeve has to be removed. Pinning the sleeve will also add a stress riser in the top of the cylinder where ring seal needs to be at it's best. A stress risers may cause the bore to have a slight high spot in the bore surface when the cylinder is up to temperature but will measure perfectly when the cylinder is at room temperature.
A cylinder that has been pinned like in the video, will usually have 2 very faint brown spots on the bore to the left and right side of the high spot. The faint brown spots are blow by.
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If the interference fit is correct "pinning" the sleeve is not necessary. Pinning just make sleeve removal more time consuming if the sleeve has to be removed. Pinning the sleeve will also add a stress riser in the top of the cylinder where ring seal needs to be at it's best. A stress risers may cause the bore to have a slight high spot in the bore surface when the cylinder is up to temperature but will measure perfectly when the cylinder is at room temperature.
A cylinder that has been pinned like in the video, will usually have 2 very faint brown spots on the bore to the left and right side of the high spot. The faint brown spots are blow by.
this may be true of an aluminum sleeved cylinder but in an iron or steel sleeve it will not create any localized stress unless the tapered pin forced deep into the mating surfaces. also, in an aluminum sleeve it transfers the heat at the same rate so a sleeve sliding in the bore is unlikely if the fit is per manufacturers fit tolerances.
john
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Jerry, this motor has a ka4...4 rod in it, is this the old cr250? has wide wrist pin compared to my 88 crank.
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Pretty sure it will arrive to them on monday so I should have some news soon.
Any news? :popcorn:
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this may be true of an aluminum sleeved cylinder but in an iron or steel sleeve it will not create any localized stress unless the tapered pin forced deep into the mating surfaces. also, in an aluminum sleeve it transfers the heat at the same rate so a sleeve sliding in the bore is unlikely if the fit is per manufacturers fit tolerances.
john
There will always be localized stress where the tapered pin is located. When the cylinder is bored and honed, the bore should be perfectly straight and round at the temperature at at which it was machined. The aluminum casting and the iron sleeve expand at different rates when there is a temperature change. This is basics physics and we cannot change the properties of the two metals. The temperature of the aluminum casting and the iron sleeve changes when the engine is running as does the interference fit between the two. The stress in the area where the tapered pin is located will always be different than the stress at the interference fit on the rest of the sleeve and cylinder. The CHANGE in stress is what creates the high and low spots in the surface of the bore.
A tapered pin or straight threaded bolt will not stay tight without creating localized stress regardless of the material it is screwed into. The localized stress is what keeps it tight as does with any threaded fastener. The change in stress would actually be less when a tapered pin is inserted between an iron cylinder with an iron sleeve than when a pin is inserted between an iron sleeve in a aluminum casting when there is a temperature change.
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There will always be localized stress where the tapered pin is located. When the cylinder is bored and honed, the bore should be perfectly straight and round at the temperature at at which it was machined. The aluminum casting and the iron sleeve expand at different rates when there is a temperature change. This is basics physics and we cannot change the properties of the two metals. The temperature of the aluminum casting and the iron sleeve changes when the engine is running as does the interference fit between the two. The stress in the area where the tapered pin is located will always be different than the stress at the interference fit on the rest of the sleeve and cylinder. The CHANGE in stress is what creates the high and low spots in the surface of the bore.
A tapered pin or straight threaded bolt will not stay tight without creating localized stress regardless of the material it is screwed into. The localized stress is what keeps it tight as does with any threaded fastener. The change in stress would actually be less when a tapered pin is inserted between an iron cylinder with an iron sleeve than when a pin is inserted between an iron sleeve in a aluminum casting when there is a temperature change.
lets agree to disagree. but at this point i better return my degrees because apparently what i learned at CMU was wrong.
john
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lets agree to disagree. but at this point i better return my degrees because apparently what i learned at CMU was wrong.
john
What a great way to respond to information shared with you...Shows your maturity and appreciation for a guy like Jerry taking time from his day to stop by and share with us.
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What a great way to respond to information shared with you...Shows your maturity and appreciation for a guy like Jerry taking time from his day to stop by and share with us.
this was a mature response. i ended the argument out of respect for his background and experience. however, i feel his statement isn't valid.
john
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They displayed good business practice, and handled the issue with no hassle. I have no complaints.
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They displayed good business practice, and handled the issue with no hassle. I have no complaints.
That's good to hear. :smile-new:
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I don't think Jerry expects to be treated as God around here or any other forum, from what I have seen over the years he actually enjoys teaching and learning.
If you do think someone is wrong, explain in detail your argument supporting your beliefs, we never stop learning at any age and that applies the Jerry and even the engineering field itself.
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The knowledge and credibility Jerry gives is a high value currency for this board, especially when keeping in mind when an unethical businessman plagued the .net site that so much disappointment has come from. Among several conversations I've been fortunate to have with him I've been to his shop in Az. Depending on the depth of the particular subject I can hold my own among most builders in a technical discussion, but Jerry is deeply, deeply knowledgeable, from years of data collecting and a deep background in physics. That experience is irreplacable. He's well known among builders and his credibility is among the top in the industry, globally.
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All250R,
Where have you been, little vacation maybe ?? :ride:
Neil
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All250R,
Where have you been, little vacation maybe ?? :ride:
Neil
Hey Neil, thanks for asking. I browse periodically and wish I had more time for things - certainly not on vacation. Hope things are going well in your neck of the woods battling the 4stroke nuisance with premix. :)
Jason