TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: trx250scar on February 17, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
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(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/42_727_2017-04-18_4558.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/42_728_2017-04-18_7442.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/42_729_2017-04-18_9872.jpg)
Does the passages above the exhaust port look to need milled? I am going to ship back to ESR. I tried a lrd big bore pipe and it still ran 200 and it was only 60 outside. At a loss. Don't know What I am looking at there but there is barely any opening there. Hope the camera captured it.
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if esr does any more design changes i recomend they look at the ktm250 for ideas. i dont think i seen mine get above 130* last summer
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Kinda hard to tell from the pics, but looks like that cylinders coolant jacket, is closed up a bit more than normal.
What some are doing, taking a long shank carbide & opening up a bit more down under the head stud casting & a bit just above the PV part, so more flow can pass over the top of the exhaust port.
Lets see a pic of the head as well, make sure the head only has small holes at the rear over top of the intake area.
Neil
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The last picture makes the cylinder look OK, IMO
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Oscar, that looks very familiar to others, that have had cooling issues. I opened that area up, over heating problem, solved.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-9.jpg)
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Kinda hard to tell from the pics, but looks like that cylinders coolant jacket, is closed up a bit more than normal.
What some are doing, taking a long shank carbide & opening up a bit more down under the head stud casting & a bit just above the PV part, so more flow can pass over the top of the exhaust port.
Lets see a pic of the head as well, make sure the head only has small holes at the rear over top of the intake area.
Neil
I have already shipped it to ESR so I cannot take any more pics but the head has the same pattern of long holes to match the cylinder. No small holes.
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Thanks for all the opinions. Talked with Eddie and He seems to think the water passages will not effect it. Idk What to think. I just want it fixed. I will keep u posted on What He replies to me.
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I am 98.9% sure that all esr billet heads have smaller passage cut to the rear over the intake, always have. There were other companies that did oring style billet different but it wasn't esr. Take a look at this area and under the dome again trx250scar and you will see it. I think all that ever searched for added cooling over the ex were the non pv with pv like yours not needing more flow there. Solid casting vs being cut out for the pv related to expansion or something like that. But esr did start opening that up 6 months ago or so when they started to cut the base nut seats. I think they got a new tool or something and while playing with thier program made those changes if I remember right. Anyway it deffinatly would never hurt to open it but don't know if it is a problem for you.
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I responded to your first question which was "do you think it needs milled", it hard to say with the pics you took but the 3rd pic looks like there is enough water jacket around the stud to feed enough water near exhaust port area.
But after rereading you then state that the bike is running hot, well milling out the water passage over the exhaust port will NOT fix overheating, infact it should add more BTU's to the cooling system. When have not enough cooling around the exhaust port like you asked about, you will normally have piston heat problems but that will not be seen on a gauge that will be seen with piston scuffing or seizure
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I am 98.9% sure that all esr billet heads have smaller passage cut to the rear over the intake, always have. There were other companies that did oring style billet different but it wasn't esr. Take a look at this area and under the dome again trx250scar and you will see it. I think all that ever searched for added cooling over the ex were the non pv with pv like yours not needing more flow there. Solid casting vs being cut out for the pv related to expansion or something like that. But esr did start opening that up 6 months ago or so when they started to cut the base nut seats. I think they got a new tool or something and while playing with thier program made those changes if I remember right. Anyway it deffinatly would never hurt to open it but don't know if it is a problem for you.
maybe i just dont remember what it looked like in the head. i wasnt really focusing on that so i may have missed the different hole sizes.
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Cool, no big deal you will see it. The cut outs in the billet are just smaller in the rear for less flow then the front. I didn't read the other thread but I assume the new large stinger style bb pipe ran the same temps as the b. I hope you find what is keeping your temps up soon.
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Cool, no big deal you will see it. The cut outs in the billet are just smaller in the rear for less flow then the front. I didn't read the other thread but I assume the new large stinger style bb pipe ran the same temps as the b. I hope you find what is keeping your temps up soon.
the lrd bb pipe ran 200. my trx5b ran 220+ if i let it but it was 95-100 out when i ran the trx5b and it was only 60 out when i ran the lrd bb. so i am sure if were the heat of the summer the lrd bb would have had the same 220+ temps. like i said eddie says he is willing to help me figure out my problem. thats why i shipped him my cylinder. i guess we will start there. i am deffinately not saying there is something wrong with my cylinder just want to rule that out of the potential problems. the thing that gets me is how are so many guys running these esr motors with no trouble and only a small few of us see these issues. bad luck i guess.
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Can you measure the stinger size on the 2 pipes, is the ESR pipe actually 1.25 o.d. Like the LRD
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The ESR pipe fits inside the lrd bb. I think the lrd is 1/8" bigger id. However I cannot measure it as I sold it.
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This is what my head looked like when I took it off before I did a complete rebuild on my motor for reference. Hope this illustrates the holes they are talking about.(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/103_744_2017-04-18_870.jpg)
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Ok want to tell you a bought my esr 310. I was on the band wagon with the rest of the people that was mad a bought the over heating problem. Had a gauge in it would run hot 225 and 250. Had cylinder off once and milled out the front cooling ports just like every one told me to. No difference in temp. Here is what you need to do first check your cooling system then pressure test your crank case. When checking your cooling system make sure your cap is good and that your cap has a flat place to seal to. All my prob with mine was me overlooking the radiator cap sealing surface. If the cap won't seal it will not move coolent. Easy fix. Easy to miss hope this helps. I blamed it on esr for a while but it wasn't them it was me. Give it a good look over. Haven't had a heating problem seance. I should of known better than point fingers. Eddie is a great guy and was very help full with me. Thanks for all the great products Eddie
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I am not blaming ESR simply trying to rule out the cylinder. I have a pwr radiator. Tried known working radiators and caps in place of the pwr. Those work fine on my other R's. I am not an engine builder but cannot help to keep going back to heat retention. A combination of a pv, torque exhaust flange from ESR, and a smaller diameter tail section seems to be a combination of things that will limit the flow of exhaust gas thus cause overheating. However I am not a builder and have been told by a few different reputable guys that those things shouldn't cause the overheating. What gets me is it runs real healthy real clean with a nice deep buuurrrrap sound. At a loss.
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The ESR pipe fits inside the lrd bb. I think the lrd is 1/8" bigger id. However I cannot measure it as I sold it.
IMO the smaller stinger is building more heat in the piston and some of this extra heat is absorbed into the cooling system, now this is more than likely not your cooling problem but in theory you are adding heat to it.
Creating more flow over the exhaust port area of the cylinder is a good thing and will make the cylinder less likely to seize but in no way is it going to lower your temps you read on your gauge.
When I look at your pictures, it looks as though you have allot of iron in your coolant, if this is true than you are clogging your radiator and complete cooling system and this and build up of lime and magnesium will slow the transfer of heat and not cool your motor.
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That cylinder has only had 100% distilled water ran thru it. And it doesn't have many hours on it at all. Mostly break in were I was running very ez low rpm. I think those deposits u c r from that distilled water sitting in it. That wasn't the plan to leave it but after more important things came up the bike got put on the back burner. This has been a problem since last March almost a year. Mostly my fault as I would get discourage d and leave it sit for a month or two before I would try something else. Shoot I ended buying and building a trx450 to ride since then. The overheating showed up soon as started to really run it hard after break in. Long before the cylinder or radiator ever had a chance to build up any corrosion or deposits.
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Your residue from your coolant looks terrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
100 % water has a low boiling point and is good at transferring heat but is not corrosion resistant. Just run a 50/50 mix for distilled water with a name brand automotive coolant. The 50/50 mix will raise the boiling point about 50 degrees. High engine temperatures and high coolant temperature are two totally different problems.
High coolant temperatures are a result of the radiator not getting rid of enough heat. Probable causes: Not enough air flow THROUGH the radiator, plugged up coolant passage ways inside the radiator, fins peened over or the fins are full of mud, all air scoops not present or positioned correctly. Radiator too small for the heat the engine is generating.
High engine temperature is the result of poor heat transfer from the engine to the coolant. This is caused from a film of corrosion inside of the water jacket on the cylinder and head, coolant with a low boiling point, the pressure cap not allowing the pressure to build. Low cooling system pressure lowers the boiling point of the coolant.
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Status Oscar! What's the latest?
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This was posted yesterday in the chat box by etccb:
that chatting got me to go click on my current favorite link on the esr site. (330 4mil package) and look what I found... There are some new pics there of I guess the new mill and a shot of a non power valve with what looks like a deeper cut over the exh. http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/...er-kit-npv.htm (http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/330-76mm-stroker-kit-npv.htm)
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Thanks guys for the concern. I have shipped the cylinder off to ESR. It's been there two weeks haven't had a call from him yet. I was giving him a little time before I called,but I think two weeks is enough I will be trying a call to him Monday for an update. Will let all of you know What He finds.
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Cool Oscar! Let's us know.
Thanks for the link Tony. That looks like a nice kit!
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Alright update time. ESR had my cylinder for 2 months. Finally got a return call from Eddie. He said the problem was my dome. Said it was to much compression. It was a 330 stroker race dome. He sent a 330 stroker pump dome. That had me a little upset because when I ordered the combo He sent it to me with a race dome. I ordered pump dome. After receiving it I called to get the pump dome sent to me and That's when He told me I had to run a race dome and race fuel with this combo because of detonation. So I just decided to go with it and run 112 against my wishes as it's $12 per gallon. But figured got thus much in it so What the heck. Well needless to say the pump dome with either 93 ethonal free or 112 still overheated. At thus time I was so pissed I began to drill out my water jacket over the pv area. Reassembled and just took it to ride and realized I drilled to much and went thru the pv opening. I didn't c it when I drilled it as I left the pv assembly installed. It's small but now junk.not sure if it's repairable or not. Honestly I have so much money and time in this junk cylinder I feel I may just get pro x or cpi. Problem is I have a 4 mil stroke so the pro x still Maybe a problem. Everyone is saying the new ESR cylinder have better casting for cooling ability bit I am not sure I will give them anymore business. After all He saw it with his own eyes and sent it back with a dome He told me originally I could not use. All of this took him 2 months.
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You should be able to use some epoxy in the area that is leaking into the PV area, dont throw away the cylinder or give up.
you just need to clean it real well and use a good epoxy like Devcon, it takes just need a small amount to to fix this.
I mentioned this before: adding cooling around the exhaust port is not going to fix a overheating problem but it will allow the exhaust side of the piston run cooler and be less prone to seizing.
You are only going to fix a overheating problem by removing more heat at the radiator
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welding is probly another option but for pete sake dont let millenium do it :biggrin-new:
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You should be able to use some epoxy in the area that is leaking into the PV area, dont throw away the cylinder or give up.
you just need to clean it real well and use a good epoxy like Devcon, it takes just need a small amount to to fix this.
I mentioned this before adding cooling around the exhaust port is not going to fix a overheating problem but it will allow the exhaust side of the piston run cooler and be less prone to seizing.
You are only going to fix a overheating problem by removing more heat at the radiator
^^^ This is good advice. Too many people forget that as you increase the size of your engine to these big bores, the heat rejection requirements for the engine go up as well. A factory 250R radiator will only do so much. You have 2 options to increase the heat rejection capacity of your cooling system: 1. increase the size of the radiator 2. increase the air flow through your radiator.
The 2nd option is basically fixed unless you mount a fan to the radiator or go with a shroud design that actually forces air through the fins when the quad is moving (most of the shroud designs don't)
The only other option left is to increase the size of the radiator. One other additional option that could help would be to run an oversize rad that has a dual pass setup, like AFCO. I think there is another brand that may also offer this.
It sounds like you may have messed up the cylinder out of haste. If so, it happens, but don't give up. Just take a breath. It can be easily fixed. Hang it there.
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running less compression (like you have), less ign advance, higher pressure radiator cap (increased pressure raises the boiling point) and a larger stinger and/or larger silencer (start with the silencer first), make sure the fins on the radiator are all straight and clean from dirt between them.
Keep in mind CR500's run at high temps most all the time and with proper jetting they live very long lives. Fix the water leak and go out and enjoy the bike, and slowly keep trying things to bring the temps inline
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Try running less compression (like you have), less ign advance, higher pressure radiator cap (increased pressure raises the boiling point) and a larger stinger and/or larger silencer (start with the silencer first), make sure the fins on the radiator are all straight and clean from dirt between them.
Keep in mind CR500's run at high temps most all the time and with proper jetting they live very long lives. Fix the water leak and go out and enjoy the bike, and slowly keep trying things to bring the temps inline
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I will go out on a limb and say fuel with alcohol in it will actually make the engine run cooler than pure gasoline, any bike on methanol runs very cool and many drag cars race with E85 and they all remark how cool their motors run.
Now I know pump gas can be all over the place and if you are jetted for pure gasoline and dump fuel with the typical 10% ethanol in it it will run leaner and hotter but if you jet for it then there should not be a problem running it.
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I have tried a larger lrd pipe and silencer. I run a new pwr radiator with no fin damage. Installed a OEM impellor I took out of package. Retarted the 01 cr ignition. Used a pump dome with 93 ethonal free and with 112. I have changed jetting even to an extreme rich. My motor Sounds great. Plugs are colored nicely. Even done a dozen plug chops with different jets. I have two other 250r I have built and tuned and ran now for 3+ years. There is something major wrong with this cylinder. I cannot say for sure if the drilling water jackets would have helped or not. I may fix the cylinder just to know. I kinda feel like the port timing is incorrect. Although everyone tells me if it were wrong it wouldn't run. I am not a n engine builder so I do not know how to setup or check port timing. However I cannot help but to think that if it were off just a small amount it would give me a real advanced timing causing the heat.and no matter how much I retard the ignition it won't b enough. I let the bike warm on idle to 150 before I ride. This takes about 10 minutes. Then I ride off. 4-5 minutes and it's over 220 and the ride back will peg the gauge at 250 and it will boil over. So I get a tow back.
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Dang. That's pretty rough Oscar.
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00-01 cr250 ignitions do not have allot of advance so you should be fine, i really can not see the port timing being the issue but it is strange since you have all the right pieces.
have higher exhaust port timing is not the same as more ignition advance, the exhaust temps increase with higher exhaust port timing because the cylinder has less time to absorb the heat from the combustion event. which technically means less BTU's into the cooling and more going into the exhaust pipe.
The same with better cooling around the exhaust port, if it has a restriction with less cooling ability then that means less BTU's into the cooling and more into the piston and exhaust.
You tried a lrd pipe that was a larger ID and it did not solve your problem, but it may be 1 piece of many in a puzzle needed to solve this.
I do not think you need to warm the engine to 150, 100 is all that is needed, but obviously this is not your problem
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What did a pressure test tell you, how did that turn out.
Well, we know for a fact now, that coolant can get down & under the exhaust port in the ESR castings to remove heat, but that area over top of the exhaust port, where you drilled those holes needs to be machined & some of that casting removed.
If you could take a Pro-x cylinder & then a new ESR casting & measured both casting over top of the exhaust port, down through the opening at the top, that Pro-x casting will measure deeper from the deck down than the ESR casting will, so the ESR is thicker cast in that area, so for sure the Pro-x will cool better than the ESR.
One thing I can say, about the differences between the Pro-x & the ESR castings, if you take a Pro-x cylinder & carve in some very high exhaust port timing for a drag cylinder, if your not careful, you could carve into the coolant jacket trying to get the timing high enough.
The ESR, even after the machining has been done over top of the exhaust port, to thin that area, theres still plenty of meat left to carve in that high exhaust timing your hunting.
When you got the cylinder back from ESR, the area over top of the exhaust had not been touched by ESR, no new machining done to it ?.
Neil
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No ESR did Nothing with the water jackets. Eddie says they r fine. I drilled it out and went to deep. That's the biggest reason I sent other to him so He could do it.He has the tooling and knowledge but refuses to do it. I honestly think here won't cause that would b admitting a cast problem then in turn be bombed with a bunch of customers wanting there's "fixed"
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Yours is a power valve cyl and the only down in there mods done are to non power valves. If you try to do the non power valve mod down inside the jacket you will cut into the p v real fast. All of the past questions about this area have always been about the solid area of the non pv with one casting being used for both and this has never been a topic on the p v before. I hope you can fix that area damaged and continue searching for the temp source.
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Yea it would b nice to fix it but I doubt I will b able to Maybe someone can. Not sure who to look to and further more not sure I want to invest anymore into this piece of crap ESR cylinder.
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What ever you do from here be carefull and don't get too over confident in a cyl only change fixing your problem.
Good luck.