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Workshop => Carburetor, Intake, and Exhaust => Topic started by: supernutt on March 08, 2014, 08:10:38 PM
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Been running amsoil dominator at 40:1 for a little bit. After reading some of the posts about oil I want to mix it at least 32:1 or maybe even 24:1 on the dunes. Just wondering if I can do that with a synthetic oil like dominator or if I have to switch to a conventional oil? Cant run castor oil due to the cold temps here. I do most of my riding in the cold. Would be going in my 310 and my 330 on race fuel.
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if castor is out of the question then me personally would be using klotz r50. 20:1-24:1 would be fine
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I used to use R50 in a banshee I had. It worked fine on the sand dunes but when I would trail ride it would build up so much carbon on the spark plug it would foul out 1 or 2 a day. Since I mostly trail ride I don't think R50 would work out so well.....Kind of leaning towards Maxima Super M or maybe the honda synthetic premix oil..
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I use the stuff from the gas station lol never had a problem.its dose stink like hell tho
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I run dominator at 40-1 for trail riding. When I go to the dunes (Idaho 5000' elev.) I mix it at 32-1. I rejet for Idaho anyway. The extra oil makes me feel better for the long pulls up choke cherry.
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Thats kind of where I am at too. But my trails are usually fast forest roads so 5th gear wide open a lot. Thinking I might even run more than 32:1 just to be safe. But just a little concerned about a oil that is recommended at 50:1 ratio being run at double the recommended amount. Long term effects and such. I have heard that the additives pose a problem at the heavier mix ratios.
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I doubt to much oil will be a prob.
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Friend has a snowmobile that just took out the rod bearings. Seemed to be injecting about 50:1 ratio. Doesn't look pretty as they seemed to be too hot. Another reason why I want more oil.
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you seem determined to stay with amsoil so call em and ask if mixing it heavier will cause a problem. superM i wouldnt touch with a 10foot pole. its petroleum based. not sure why you had a problem with r50. either your carb was way off or you ride 2mph.
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Not sure i get the castor oil and the cold commetns. I shake my can always before i pour... And i run castor oil without much fear. When your riding the tank shakes enough to keep everything in suspension.
Maybe im wrong, but i havent ever heard of not being able to run castor at extreme cold temps.
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We had a problem with our stock compression banshees fouling spark plugs when trail riding where we could not keep them wide open all day. It worked just fine on my high compression banshee but I only ran that on the sand dunes. I believe it says right on Maximas website that you should not use the castor oil in temperatures below 40° Due to it separating. Maybe I will buy a bottle of R50 and try it on these high compression Hondas and see what happens
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there is a real possibility of castor causing problems in cold temps, the exact temp may vary depending what brand castor and fuel type. 927 is only partial castor, probly around 25% so it may do better in the cold than benol.
i have done my own experiments with benol by setting some mixture outside at night and do***enting the temp when it starts to change visually. of course i have no way to test if its lubricating properties are still intact or not at this point but with the visual changes we can assume its probly not a good idea to use it in the engine. few weeks ago i mentioned having my inline filter clogged up from what appeared to be sepeartion. even with new filter it was partially clogged soon again. generally i dont get my bikes out until above 60f and ive never encountered any problem with castor. this year i got em out earlier than normal so i could have em tuned for easter at the dunes but the cold is causing problems for me.
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If it wouldn't be for the cold separation I would be running 927 or benol
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.......................there is a real possibility of castor causing problems in cold temps, the exact temp may vary depending what brand castor and fuel type. 927 is only partial castor, probly around 25% so it may do better in the cold than benol. ..................
Maxima Super m is about 20% castor and the remainder is petroleum and a splash of synthetic.
Maxima 927 is over 90% castor oil.
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Not sure i get the castor oil and the cold commetns. I shake my can always before i pour... And i run castor oil without much fear. When your riding the tank shakes enough to keep everything in suspension.
Maybe im wrong, but i havent ever heard of not being able to run castor at extreme cold temps.
If the fuel and oil chemistry is right, shaking the can is not necessary. If the chemistry is right the fuel will be crystal clear. If the fuel is cloudy the oil has already separated from the fuel and will make jetting impossible.
Cloudy fuel will cause the combustion chamber to get a different amount of fuel and oil each engine revolution. Some engine revolutions will get get almost pure oil while other engine revolutions will get almost 100 % fuel without oil. Lubrication is not usually affected very much with cloudy or fuel that has separated, but the air/fuel ratio will vary dramatically from one engine revolution to the next causing the engine to run like the jetting is way off or it has an electrical problem.
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I used to use R50 in a banshee I had. It worked fine on the sand dunes but when I would trail ride it would build up so much carbon on the spark plug it would foul out 1 or 2 a day. Since I mostly trail ride I don't think R50 would work out so well.....Kind of leaning towards Maxima Super M or maybe the honda synthetic premix oil..
An engine should be used for the intended design and tuned for that application for which it was intended.
An engine is run at a higher percentage of time at 1/2 to full throttle in the dunes than when ridden on the trails. Riding at 1/2 to full throttle makes the average operating temperature of the spark plug run much higher than trail riding. The average spark plug temperature is much lower when trail riding causing the deposits not to burn off and keep the spark plug clean.
The average operating temperature of the spark plug can be easily raised when trail riding or cold weather riding by using a hotter heat range spark plug. The hotter heat range will keep the plug cleaner but the time one spends at full throttle must be reduced considerably to keep the spark plug from causing pre-ignition.
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Makes perfect sense. Just a little nervous using hotter plugs though. So have you tried any synthetic oils at 24:1 or so when the manufacturer recommends a much lower concentration like 50:1? And if so, is it a wise thing to do or are there better choices?
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Maxima Super m is about 20% castor and the remainder is petroleum and a splash of synthetic.
Maxima 927 is over 90% castor oil.
thats weird. superM msds doesnt mention anything about castor in the ingredients, and im quit positive that would be required to be listed if it was in there. you might be thinking of super techniplate which is about 20% castor according to the klotz website, it makes no mention of having petroleum in it however. pure synthetic bases with 20% castor is how the website describes it. ive never heard of a petroleum based oil with castor. quit frankly im not even sure they would mix together but maybe so.
927 very well could be 90% castor. i have never found any concrete information that states exactly how much castor is in it. i assumed it was similar to super techniplate at about 25%. where did you get the 90% info ?
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Makes perfect sense. Just a little nervous using hotter plugs though. So have you tried any synthetic oils at 24:1 or so when the manufacturer recommends a much lower concentration like 50:1? And if so, is it a wise thing to do or are there better choices?
The lubrication will improve when you add more oil to the fuel regardless of the type or brand of oil.
I have not tried running amsoil dominator at 24:1.
Some synthetics will not make good power in the 15:1 to 30:1 range because some synthetic oils hinders the combustion process. This is why some synthetic oil containers say BEST PERFORMANCE IS AT 50:1. They do not say BEST LUBRICATION IS AT 50:1
Just try it and see if you notice a power loss.
The jetting change required would be less than 1 main jet size and less than 1 needle clip position.
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thats weird. superM msds doesnt mention anything about castor in the ingredients, and im quit positive that would be required to be listed if it was in there. you might be thinking of super techniplate which is about 20% castor according to the klotz website, it makes no mention of having petroleum in it however. pure synthetic bases with 20% castor is how the website describes it. ive never heard of a petroleum based oil with castor. quit frankly im not even sure they would mix together but maybe so.
927 very well could be 90% castor. i have never found any concrete information that states exactly how much castor is in it. i assumed it was similar to super techniplate at about 25%. where did you get the 90% info ?
Years ago Super M's container said that it was a blend of castor and some other oils. Maybe they have changed formulation or they may not be required to list all of the ingredients if some ingredients are below a certain percentage.
Petroleum and castor will not not mix unless you use some blending agents that will cause the two to bond together.
The 90% info came from Richard Lichein. Richard Lichein was the founder of Maxima. I helped Richard on some projects around 1980 to 1982 when his son Ronnie was a factory rider for Team Yamaha. He told me that he had to use some blending agents because 100% castor will not mix with gasoline. 927 may not blend as well with gasoline in cold weather as some of the other castor oils because it may have more castor and less blending agents.
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Sounds good. Thanks for the response
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Been running amsoil dominator at 40:1 for a little bit. After reading some of the posts about oil I want to mix it at least 32:1 or maybe even 24:1 on the dunes. Just wondering if I can do that with a synthetic oil like dominator or if I have to switch to a conventional oil? Cant run castor oil due to the cold temps here. I do most of my riding in the cold. Would be going in my 310 and my 330 on race fuel.
You can mix Dominator at 32:1 or 24:1 with no issues. It will not burn quite as clean, but shouldn't really be an issue especially if you don't have a power valve. I wouldn't really worry about what mixture your oil makes the most power at either as that is not the main purpose of the oil. It's first purpose is protection, atleast it should be. You can run Dominator at 50:1 or at 24:1. It's really your choice. If it for some reason makes you feel better or more comfortable to run it at a lower mix ratio, then do it. Dominator is set at 50:1 for a reason. Yes, it offers best performance at 50:1 overall, but it also offers great protection at 50:1 as well being that protection is it's first purpose. I can't speak for other company's, but that has always been Amsoil's stance on all their products.But as I said, if it gives you more "peace of mind" to use a certain oil ratio, then go for it. There is really no reason to swap the brand you are using just for that. Obviously, you are happy with the performance you have been getting or you wouldn't be so hesitant in changing. If you like using synthetic oil, keep in mind something, Amsoil created the first 2 stroke synthetic oil,first synthetic motor oil for automotive industry, first synthetic diesel oil, first synthetic automatic transmission fluid, first synthetic gear oil, first synthetic racing oil, and others. Amsoil has been leading the way in synthetic oil technology since 1972.
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I have seen a container of castor oil freeze hard before, but when mixed with alcohol in a glass jar at 0 degrees I did not notice any change or separation of the mix
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Well I don't use the Benol in the winter at all. Only run R50 or Super Techiniplate at 32:1 and it works great. I personally would not run the above mentioned oil at all....especially at high ratio's. Btw Klotz had been around since 1959.......they just don't need to spend alot on advertising because their products are that good. And if you have not guessed I sell Klotz.:p
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yes ive seen castor at the point where it wouldnt pour out of the bottle.
not sure if ive posted these before but its easy to see a change has taken place when the temp gets to a certain point. i found some info ive never heard of before and thats cloud point. maybe thats whats happening.
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/doddledo/f2_zpsb442c4e9.jpg)
this is the same as the photo above, just moments later in the garage so the light was good enough to take a photo
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/doddledo/f3_zpse6ebe25e.jpg)
this was a while later (cant recall how many minutes) when it rised in temp
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/doddledo/f1_zps91c861f7.jpg)
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My mind is made up on the ratio of 24:1 on the dunes. I may go to 32:1 for trail riding but not sure yet. The brand of oil I use doesn't matter too much but I am leaning strongly towards the amsoil because it is actually the cheapest of all of them and I can easily get it. I was always under the assumption that castor oils don't work in the cold because they separate. Looks like something else happens also......
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yes ive seen castor at the point where it wouldnt pour out of the bottle.
not sure if ive posted these before but its easy to see a change has taken place when the temp gets to a certain point. i found some info ive never heard of before and thats cloud point. maybe thats whats happening.
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/doddledo/f2_zpsb442c4e9.jpg)
this is the same as the photo above, just moments later in the garage so the light was good enough to take a photo
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/doddledo/f3_zpse6ebe25e.jpg)
this was a while later (cant recall how many minutes) when it rised in temp
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/doddledo/f1_zps91c861f7.jpg)
If the fuel is cloudy like in one of your photos, the fuel and the oil have separated. If you let the cloudy mixture sit long enough, the major volume of fuel will turn clear with a layer of oil on the bottom of the glass container. The cloudy mixture is composed of a bizillion microscopic droplets of pure oil surrounded by pure oil-less fuel.
If you want to have some fun, cool the mixture back down to 15 to 20 degrees where it will become cloudy when stirred up. Now take an eye dropper and count how many drops of pump gas it will take to turn the mixture crystal clear while stirring and maintaining the fuel temperature at 15 to 20 degrees.
Most of the time adding 2% to 5% of pump gas to a cloudy mixture will make the oil and fuel turn crystal clear. Clear fuel indicates the fuel and oil are homogeneously mixed down to the molecular level at that temperature.
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if you poured oil in water, that would be most peoples definition of seperation. that doesnt appear to be what happens with castor, atleast not at the temps shown in the photos above. it seems to be staying partially mixed. if you could examine it with a microscope im sure you would see the seperation. at extreme temps it may become like oil and water but thats irrelevant because i doubt any one is stupid enough to ride in sub zero conditions. from what ive seen castor can turn to a solid which would make it nearly impossible to mix with gas. it would remain a blob. like peanut butter in water
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if you poured oil in water, that would be most peoples definition of seperation. that doesnt appear to be what happens with castor, atleast not at the temps shown in the photos above. it seems to be staying partially mixed. if you could examine it with a microscope im sure you would see the seperation. at extreme temps it may become like oil and water but thats irrelevant because i doubt any one is stupid enough to ride in sub zero conditions. from what ive seen castor can turn to a solid which would make it nearly impossible to mix with gas. it would remain a blob. like peanut butter in water
When the fuel is cloudy the fuel and oil are at the threshold or is in the initial process of separation. In chemical reactions this is know as precipitation because the fuel as reached it's saturation point (cannot keep any more oil dissolved in the solution) . If you keep the fuel at the temperature where it just started to cloud. It may take days for the oil to settle to the bottom of the jar. Lowering the temperature will speed up the time it takes for the oil to settle to the bottom of the jar.
If the castor has absorbed a little moisture the water will start to crystallize if the temperature is below freezing.
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maybe wax is part of the castor and gets solid at a certain temp causing the cloud
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maybe wax is part of the castor and gets solid at a certain temp causing the cloud
The wax (or known as gum in the castor industry) is one of the parts of the castor that provides it's unique high temperature lubrication property. Typically, the castor oil that undergo more de-gumming burns cleaner but does not have as much lubrication protection at high temperatures.
I have seen some synthetics cloud with some race fuel that have a low specific gravity or a very low aromatic content.
Try mixing petroleum based two-stroke oil with methanol or ethanol. It will also cloud up or fall to the bottom of the container like a rock because petroleum will not dissolve in alcohol without another chemical that will help the oil dissolve.
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Super Techiniplate at 32:1 and it works great. Klotz had been around since 1959.
^^ All, I'll ever run! Klotz has proven to me over time, stick with what works for you! :encouragement:
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I mixed up a gallon of dragon 110 with 24:1 amsoil dominator in a clear glass jug. Watched it for a week and it never separated. It FINALLY got cold enough again today to freeze up the mud in the fields so I took both quads for a spin with 24:1 amsoil. I noticed no negative effects of having that much oil in the fuel. I am still not sure about long term effects but for now this is what I am going to run. Even tried some trail riding for 15 minutes and then opening it up in the fields with no issues. Thanks for the advise from all that posted.
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I left my XC bike in my race trailer the other night when it got down it the teens. Next day i started it and ran it for about 2-3 min before it started to act up. Drained the bowl and fuel line and got a ton of oil out of it. Basically the oil separated as everyone has stated it will. This was with 110 oct fuel and Maxima Castor 927 @28:1.
So it is a definite issue with this oil.
One solution is to run the bike on, the ON position instead of reserve. This will pick up fuel from higher in the tank and allow the oil to be sloshed back into suspension. Typically racing MX i always use the reserve position out of habbit. I will need to retrain my self to do otherwise.
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BUT wouldn't all the oil be in the bottom of the tank when you start it up? Which means no oil in the fuel that it is getting to start it?
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At 28:1, theres plenty still haha... I have a hard time believing that your gettin all the oil out. But i honstly dont know. Most of my season is run in temps 60-90 degrees. Only the very early part here do i need to worry about it.
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Has anyone had any experience with rust on crankshafts with amsoil dominator? I have been reading up on it and it seems that some people are complaining about it not having enough corrosion protection for sitting around? It gets really humid here and this would be an issue for me. Thought I read somewhere that conventional oils protect much better than synthetics? Any opinions would be appreciated. Been running at 24:1 for a month now with no noticeable issues........maybe the increased oil will help?