TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: switchrider on March 08, 2014, 11:23:56 PM
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Ordered me a new clutch cable last week figuring mine was streched and warn out, making my clutch have to much slack in the cable not letting my clutch fully let go. But after getting the new cable on still have the same problem. I have the adjustments as far out as possible, but the clutch only starts letting go 1/2 to 3/4 of pulling the lever. Any ideas!?
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Mine was doing that,and i thought it was warn clutch fibers...Put new clutch and same thing i was thinking maybe running a 400ex steel would take up some room and engage the clutch sooner(1/4-1/2)...it was just a thought...
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Any ideas!?
Have had this problems for years. Once I took my motor in and the builder had me weld a 1/16" spacer to the end of the push rod cup. Said the actuator arm was not in the right position. My 87 had the 3 little ball bearing grind into dust giving no pull at all. Since then I have been measuring all the push rods and have found them different lengths. Ordered extra ball bearings since I had lost a few. The key to using the new cable seems to be to getting the actuator arm in the position it needs to be. Now with the 89 update we have been using a thicker washer at the end of the push rod where it engages the outer hub. You can buy a brand new cable and it is too long. At first I made the cable holder a 1/4" longer to take up the slack. Now I just use a longer push rod and combinations of shims to get the actuator arm where it needs to be.
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What puma said is the key.
That actuator rod (the one the cable hooks to in the engine) is only a notch in that shaft. If its not in the correct position to get the best throw on it (because of worn or possibly mismatched combinations of parts) all the other adjustments wont mean too much.
Sometimes those actuator levers get pretty worn too so thats something else to look at.
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Stupid qeustion but i can't remeber when I tore it down but I need to get inside the motor to see that/take it out, correct?
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To look at the inside you just remove the clutch cover. After removing the clutch the push rod can be taken out and inspected. Sometimes a pencil magnet works to get it out. Otherwise 2 small screwdrivers or a mini needle nose pliers to pull on it. The 89 update is suggested for this purpose.
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After you get that push rod pulled out and inspected, like puma said, you can disconnect the clutch cable and the actuator lever will lift out to check that part out too.
I added a pic of a fresh one to compare that part too.
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Look good?
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Look good?
Yes not bad the edge you look at is the flat edge of the pocket. Some are real messed up with deep gouges. Yours looks a little beat compared to the one above it. Still plenty usable as they have been discontinued.
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What do you think the problem is then?!
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Which year are you using? 86 and 87 used ball bearing at the end of the push rod. Are they there or in good shape? 85-86 #28 87 #27
(http://www.servicehonda.com/hard%20parts/atv/trx250r%2086-89/clutch.jpg)
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Not sure if this is What ur talkin about but?:P haha
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And there is a thin flat washer that goes against the pancake roller bearing? Should be stuck inside the outer hub on the Frisbee.You can add a shim here if the push rod is not long enough. Do you have a caliper to measure the push rod lengths?
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This guy thst sits behind the bearing!?
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And no I do not I can pry get one tho. Hole long should it be?
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Best as I can remember, the old model release rod, with the big ball roller & T shaped cap, that old model rod is shorter than the new model update kit with the top hat cap & needle thrust bearing & machine washer.
Another thing, the actuator arm, when the edge of that notch wears from the release rod wearing on it, its done for & if you try & weld it & machine it back out, the weld fill in area will chip off, been there done that & you got a mess after that.
What about the lower needle bearing at the actuator arm, down in the case half, do we know if they can wear out completely or not. Cause if that bottom one is bad, what is the tip of that actuator arm doing, probably not pushing that rod like it should.
Neil
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This guy thst sits behind the bearing!?
Yes, thats it. If you add a .060 shim to it you will gain a few threads on the cable adjuster. Try comparing the length of both push rods. Use the longer one. What we are doing is adding some throw to your push rod. There for when you hook up your cable it wont have to pull so far in to release the clutch. In turn you will be able have your cable in the normal position with adjustment when your cable stretches.
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When you us a shim? What kinda shim do I put in there?
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And no I do not I can pry get one tho. Hole long should it be?
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8.060" to 8.070" or 205mm
'
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When you us a shim? What kinda shim do I put in there?
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I make them up with the water jet cutter from different material thicknesses. Can mail one to you if you know what thickness you need. If you can measure your push rod and use a shim to make up the difference on how short it is.
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Alrighty! Thanks so much! More qeustions to come!
Dalton
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Trying to find a caliper right now. I'll let you no what I come up with thank you pumashine!!!! Been a great help! Really appreciate it!
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Being that far into it you should have two flat hardened washers that look similar to the one you pictured. One goes behind the lock washer/tab that holds the inner hub on. #21 in the above diagram. And the one Puma is talking about which goes between the roller bearing and the pressure plate. (which is not shown on the diagram) Its kind of hard to judge the two in the pictures sometimes.
The pressure plate one, usually sticks behind in there. Just wanted to point out the two of them. They wont interchange because of their size difference.
I also agree your lever isnt that far gone yet to cause this.
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Being that far into it you should have two flat hardened washers that look similar to the one you pictured. One goes behind the lock washer/tab that holds the inner hub on. #21 in the above diagram. And the one Puma is talking about which goes between the roller bearing and the pressure plate. (which is not shown on the diagram) Its kind of hard to judge the two in the pictures sometimes.
The pressure plate one, usually sticks behind in there. Just wanted to point out the two of them. They wont interchange because of their size difference.
I also agree your lever isnt that far gone yet to cause this.
So you think its just the rod is too short?
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Well I cant measure mine very accurately, but the three I have, which should be 89 update (roller bearing) sized, and they are barely over 8"
My calipers only go 6" so it was an eyeball on a ruler.
I'd use Tonys numbers if you can measure yours with a bigger set.
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Well I cant measure mine very accurately, but the three I have, which should be 89 update (roller bearing) sized, and they are barely over 8"
My calipers only go 6" so it was an eyeball on a ruler.
I'd use Tonys numbers if you can measure yours with a bigger set.
Haha I just put two 6 inch calipers together and it measured out to be 8.040 for both of my rods
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Haha I just put two 6 inch calipers together and it measured out to be 8.040 for both of my rods
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Thats what I'm talking about. I have some that measure 8.040" and I know its on the short side. I can send you some shims that go with the washer on the pancake bearing. You should setup the clutch by putting everything on except the springs. Adjust your cable so you have some adjustment. Put the shim or shims in and have someone pull the clutch cable while you are holding the disks in place. You will see the push rod extend and push the disks open. The outer hub should open with plenty of space between the outer hub and the first disk. If you have too much space then adjust the cable. The pushrod extends as the actuator arm is turned. So a small adjustment in the clutch is a much larger adjustment at the cable. I use hydraulic clutches and it only works one way, the hydraulics push so much and its done. So all the real adjustment must be done inside the clutch.
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I made up 20 sets of the shims
(http://i62.tinypic.com/1j5jlz.jpg)
They go in place or next to the OEM one which measures .036"
(http://i59.tinypic.com/9rrfci.jpg)
I am sending a set of these to the OP. We will then see if this cures his problem!
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Tony, thanks for helping Dalton out, i stopped by and had about 45 minutes to try and play with it last friday, i figured it was something not allow the clutch to fully disengage, but didnt have time to help him tear into it.
You're helping a good kid out! 16 years old and building his R!
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Tony, thanks for helping Dalton out, i stopped by and had about 45 minutes to try and play with it last friday, i figured it was something not allow the clutch to fully disengage, but didnt have time to help him tear into it.
You're helping a good kid out! 16 years old and building his R!
Yep, Both of you guys. Good men.
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Yep, Both of you guys. Good men.
Thanks Ryan!
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You're helping a good kid out! 16 years old and building his R!
He's also got the patients needed to work with these 25 year old machines. I mailed him the shims and asked if he needed them sooner than first class mail. His response was "no need for the fast shipping i got to get gaskets and stuff yet any ways" Planning and patients are key ingredients to building a reliable motor.
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Bingo! And to add to the list, he is always looking to learn as much as he can! Can't say enough about this kid!
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thanks pinned! cant wait till i can no as much as all you guys!!
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Got my shims in the mail yesterday!! Thanks so much pumashine!! Plainin on trying them out today! See if this solves my problem!!
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Got my shims in the mail yesterday!! Thanks so much pumashine!! Plainin on trying them out today! See if this solves my problem!!
Do take into consideration you can shim it too much. Too much space and the springs will not hold the clutch tight enough. Just as if your friction disks were all worn out and your clutch was slipping.
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Is there anyway to tell this before it all goes back together? Or just hit or miss?
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Is there anyway to tell this before it all goes back together? Or just hit or miss?
I was trying to explain in an earlier post about holding the outer cover by hand that the push rod pushes against. No springs and bolts. Start by adding the thinnest shim. Have someone pull the clutch lever too see if the outer cover moves away from the plates and disks. If it does not go to the next shim. It should only take a few minutes as you are not assembling the bolts and springs each time. You need to hold the friction disks and plates with the other hand against the motor too see if there is some gap created as the push rod moves out. So you use both hands and the extra person pulls the clutch lever
I am guessing you will only need the smallest shim .030" thick as your push rod was .020" short.
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Alrighty thanks!! I'll start be doin that!
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Alrighty thanks!! I'll start be doin that!
See if you can take a close up pic of where the actuator arm is pointing before and after you get done if possible. If not no big deal as you may not see the difference but I was hoping you would.
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It's all back together now I used the second smallest shim. Give me just enough tread on the handle bar and the case mount to have a tight lever with no play. It seems like it won't slip still good pressure on the plates.
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It's all back together now I used the second smallest shim.
That is the .035" same thickness as the stock one its sitting next to. Glad I could help. Niel (C-Leigh Racing) asked me to make this kit as the guys were having problems with the clutch mod he invented. I cut about 40 sets and will make up the aluminum drain plug spacers available as a kit.
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Thanks so much!! You have been a huge help! Can't thank you enough!!