TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: 363 stroker on July 03, 2013, 11:41:03 PM
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What do you guys think of a service honda cr500 ignition on a 370 sphinx. Lighting coil is my concern. Would this be as good as a cr250 ignition or not. Thanks Jim
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what are you doing with the bike? what kinda of riding and fuel choice?
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It will be on 110 race fuel. Normal use. Trail riding, dirt roads, a little bit of dunes.
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should be just fine the cr250 ignition curve will be better but probably not that noticable for your application.
i also have a 150watt stator for the cr250 ignition that i will get some videos up and some more info here shortly
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Do you think it is an improvement over a trx ignition.
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You will need a custom made adaptor plate to get it timed right rsss396 can tell you how he really knows IGN s
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I have an adaptor plate. This is supposedly a bdt cr 250/500 ignition. But I think it is a service honda cr 500 ignition.
It looks exactly the same.
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You will need a custom made adaptor plate to get it timed right rsss396 can tell you how he really knows IGN s
x2, rsss396 is the ignition wizard.
john
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I would be interested to know what the timing curve looks like on the service honda ignition.
I wonder if the company you mentioned selling the lighting ignitions was just buying them from service honda and reselling them?
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I would be interested to know what the timing curve looks like on the service honda ignition. You will have to modify the std esr stator plate because it has a ring machined so it lines the stator up centered around the crank/flywheel. To use the service honda stator you will have to grind the ring off because the cr500 stator does not use the ring.
I wonder if the company you mentioned selling the lighting ignitions was just buying them from service honda and reselling them?
This is what I am wondering. The ignition came with a mounting plate to bolt up but no Instructions,info,wiring diagram or anything. It looks "exactly" like the service honda kit. I am going to try it but was curios on peoples take of this or if they tried one. I am told this is "custom" and very close to the cr250 curve but I am hesitant to beleive that.
Jim
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here is some talk about it on the cr500 forum
http://cr500riders.com/cgi/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1348320309
curious if the stator plate service honda uses can just be swapped out with a cr250 plate. The cr500 guys machine the cr250 plate to work on their bikes or use the cr125 stator which has the smaller crank seal like a cr500.
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here is some talk about it on the cr500 forum
http://cr500riders.com/cgi/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1348320309
curious if the stator plate service honda uses can just be swapped out with a cr250 plate. The cr500 guys machine the cr250 plate to work on their bikes or use the cr125 stator which has the smaller crank seal like a cr500.
I guess members only can read the post.
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I guess members only can read the post.
I think so. I could not read it.
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I copied a couple posts about it and some video, not allot of info on this yet but I guess this is better than nothing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BStXj3uITdA&feature=plcp
New starting vid of the SH Ignition available next week.
"This video shows the 2 different ways to start our newest version of the CR500 digital ignition. First way to start is a fast full top dead center kick starting at the highest point in the kick stroke. The second way is to perform 2 kicks back to back while keeping the engine rotating. The reasoning behind this is the digital ignition initially fires on the second revolution rather than the analog ignition which fires on the first revolution."
http://servicehonda.com/cr500-ignition-and-light-coil
Its almost 100 watts right off idle
That said , yes right at idle(depending on where you are running idle)
if you run AC you might see it dim or brighten as you blip the throttle right off idle.
Anything above idle, is ful on bright as the wattage of the bulb you are running.
i truly doubt you can see any difference in headlight output at all...
unless running some huge kit for desert racing ,or a street kit with signal;s taillight brake light horn etc, where a DC system with a capacitor or battery is typically used even in any OEM street bike to stabilize the system somewhat.
The system was always designed,by Electrosport for us, primarily for lighting
as Eline had long ago dropped their external unit.
That unit as a good one! I had one and liked it!
but it hasn't been available in a long long time.
and it was 2 separate circuits (two 100 watt circuits on one system ,isn't the same as one 200watt) so that often confused folks as well.
Ours is 130 watts and it comes up fast, right off idle.
I'll try to put a vid together sometime
Here's the headlight with it idling. Battery was stone dead after I turned on and left the switch in power position with my Duran style hands of stone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyWSUp_sIO8
( a small battery is recommended with the system to prevent flicker in the lights)
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Thought I would post up Jim's BDT CR250 ignition with a lighting coil timing curve compared to the 2001 cr250-cr125
System seams to be of a nice quality not sure who builds it but it does seam to be the same manufacture Service Honda uses for the cr500 ignition.
When I went to the Service Honda website the wire schematic matched perfectly and looks to be simular.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/BDTand2001CR250ampCR125curves_zps9ac5d526.jpg)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]343[/ATTACH]
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I don't know much about this, but is that much advance good?
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here is a picture of the BDT flywheel compared to a 2001 CR250 flywheel, BDT's flywheel has a 200 gram weight added to it.
That would make the the bike feel closer to a stock style flywheel but probably still rev quicker since its much smaller diameter
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00001_zps4aac4c2e.jpg)
BDT flywheel on the scale
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00003_zpsf62768f2.jpg)
Stock 2001 CR250
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00002_zps3f6ffa31.jpg)
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Interesting, thanks for all the info you have added to the site.
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Any idea on why the pulse trigger on that bottom flywheel is so long?
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The longer the pulse trigger the larger the spread on the ignition curve can be.
But the cdi can be programed with a shorter spread you just can not go longer than the amount of degrees that the triggers length in crank degrees
Seanoktm found when he switched from a trx250r flywheel to a cr250 flywheel his timing spread shortened 2-3 degrees with his MSD ign because of the shorter trigger length of the CR flywheel.
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The motor will have more inertia and less likely to stall but will rev slower but not slower than stock, small light flywheels are a love it or hate it kind of thing.
I think they did good by adding the weight myself but thats me.
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http://www.servicehonda.com/cr500-ignition-and-light-coil
Looks like the bdt kit might just be the same as the service honda set up. Flywheel weight and lengthy pick up.
I kinda wish i would have just went this way, now that the cr250 cdi is discountinued...
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http://www.servicehonda.com/cr500-ignition-and-light-coil
Looks like the bdt kit might just be the same as the service honda set up. Flywheel weight and lengthy pick up.
I kinda wish i would have just went this way, now that the cr250 cdi is discountinued...
I noticed the same thing. I thought they designed and built their own ignition but it looks like they ripped off service honda's design.
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I am sure BDT will deny it, but even the coil wires are setup for a cr500 coil, Jim has to cut the female round plug off and install a female flat blade to go on the CR 250 coil.
No instructions came with it so I just downloaded the wiring diagram from service Honda and magicly they were the same.
It even has a extra coil output wire for a tach like service Honda shows.
It looks like a nice setup none the less and we are going to slot the stator to get the curve where we want it.
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But we need to modify the cr250 adaptor plate to work with the 500 stator plate correct?
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How much do you plan on advancing at the stator?
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We are thinking 4-5 degrees, sometime this weekend I will try to make up a graph showing the 4-5 degrees added at the stator plate.
Derby didn't you say yours started better with a little advance when starting it.
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But we need to modify the cr250 adaptor plate to work with the 500 stator plate correct?
No the stator plate works with the CR250 stator adapter you get from esr, or others that make them.
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so i can get the ESR adapter plate and this kit http://www.servicehonda.com/cr500-ignition-and-light-coil and it will be a good performace upgrade like the other kits but I will now be able to run lights?
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Advancing my setup I thought the bike started up easier. When I was using the programmable dyna fs, I found that if I put the startup timing at 0 degrees the bike was hard to crank. It always seemed that around 7-8 degrees it became much easier. Even with the 01 cr250 ignition advanced up to 6-8 degrees I never did have a problem with kickback. I thought one of the older service honda cr500 ignitions from years ago used a modified cr125 stator and it did not have the groove in the back of the stator plate. But it sounds like, and dave can confirm this, if they use a cr250 stator the groove should be cut in the back of the stator plate and it will bolt right up to the esr plate no mods needed like I referred to earlier in the post.
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Just wondering how good these digital CDI's are from Service Honda since aftermarket CDI's have caused me nothing but problems. Really wanting to find a igniton upgrade for my R that works good,is easy to install and setup,and most of all doesnt include discontinued parts. All info is helpful keep it coming.THX
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Interesting, thanks for all the info you have added to the site.
...x2
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Service Honda also offers the kit to put a R motor in a 400ex frame http://www.servicehonda.com/service.html and the kit comes with a digital ignition but all it tells in the description is "16-bit processor in the ignition CPU provides fast data calculation and accurate timing for the solid-state 3-D map style digital ignition."
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Service Honda also offers the kit to put a CR motor in a 400ex frame http://www.servicehonda.com/service.html and the kit comes with a digital ignition but all it tells in the description is "16-bit processor in the ignition CPU provides fast data calculation and accurate timing for the solid-state 3-D map style digital ignition." Just wondering how good these digital CDI's are from Service Honda since aftermarket CDI's have caused me nothing but problems. Really wanting to find a igniton upgrade for my R that works good,is easy to install and setup,and most of all doesnt include discontinued parts. All info is helpful keep it coming.THX
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I snapped some pics of the back side of the BDT stator plate and 1 OEM 00-01CR250 stator plate and 1 electrosport plate modified to work with the CR500.
When electrosport makes the CR250 plate they did not cast the center raised area that creates a recessed ring.
The out side of the ring is all that is needed honestly for the stator to be centered and rotate around the crank seal part of the case.
Leaving this center out by electrsport helps the cr500 guys because they now only have to run a bushing or O-ring like I did to center the stator around the cr500 smaller crank seal.
Now I modified my electrosport plate to the same specs that I had machined on my previously modified OEM stator plate. But when I had previously done the OEM plate I cut it deeper than electrosport had cased it so I removed material from the center area to match, well I honestly never needed to modify the electrosport stator like I did, I just needed a bushing or o-ring.
So basically what I am getting at the same stator plate will work on a cr250 or a cr500 but the cr500 must run a spacer and obviously the TRX250R must run the standard CR250 adapter plate from ESR and others.
first pic shows the OEM on the left, BDT in the center and electrosport modified for the cr500.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00002_zpsf9256cdc.jpg)
this picture shows the electrsport modified for a cr500 along with a thick oring to create a bushing to take the difference of the stator ID and the cases crank seal that the stator rotates on.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00003_zpsd782f596.jpg)
this picture shows the same oring in the the BDT stator (sorry the pic blurred)
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00001_zps9299d8d3.jpg)
here is how the back of a OEM cr250 stator plate looks, if you notice the raised center electrosport does not cast this in and if you have a cr500 you remove the center section.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00002_1__zps7b75dbd9.jpg)
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well I just could not resist pulling the black shrink wrap back on the cdi and guess what? same numbers as Service Honda's :suspicion:
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00003_1__zps8e0687bd.jpg)
here is sevice hondas promo picture notice how the numbers are the same, wow why not just come out and tell everyone what you are selling?
http://servicehonda.com/cr500-ignition-and-light-coil
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/digitalignitioncr500x2md_zps1cccbe4e.jpg)
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well I just could not resist pulling the black shrink wrap back on the cdi and guess what? same numbers as Service Honda's :suspicion:
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/DSC00003_1__zps8e0687bd.jpg)
here is sevice hondas promo picture notice how the numbers are the same, wow why not just come out and tell everyone what you are selling?
http://servicehonda.com/cr500-ignition-and-light-coil
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/digitalignitioncr500x2md_zps1cccbe4e.jpg)
So this kit along with the ESR adapter plate is all a man needs to make this work?
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yes
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yes
thank you rsss396 for the info. I am so confused on which way to go when it comes to buying a updated ignition kit. There are so many ways to go so many pros and cons. But the Service Honda kit with a ESR adapter plate sure looks like a good choice with the option of running lights,more power and easier starting. That is if the CDI's with the SH kit are up to par.
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sorry for all the questions but to make this work on a TRX250R what about the coil? Use a TRX,CR250,CR500? Im not swimming in money so Im trying to figure what i need before I drop this much money and end up buying the wrong thing or getting it torn down during install and realizing I dont have everything I need.
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Thank you rsss!
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When ****** sent me this ignition and I inspected it I was convinced it was a service honda CR 500 ignition based on what I was looking at. That is the main reason I sent it to rsss. I knew he would figure this out and I will test it and hopefully have a good answer for everyone.
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For some reason Im not surprised by these findings
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sorry for all the questions but to make this work on a TRX250R what about the coil? Use a TRX,CR250,CR500? Im not swimming in money so Im trying to figure what i need before I drop this much money and end up buying the wrong thing or getting it torn down during install and realizing I dont have everything I need.
I have tested a bunch of different coils on a bunch of different cdi's and I honestly have not seen any spark difference on my bench tester, I even have a couple high voltage meters and very little difference to none.
IMO I would just go with a cr250 coil and a Pumashine or ESR coil mount and cut one of the round female plugs off and crimp a new female flat blade connector on.
other wise you will have to make a custom mount or drill your frame to mount the larger cr500 coil.
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I have tested a bunch of different coils on a bunch of different cdi's and I honestly have not seen any spark difference on my bench tester, I even have a couple high voltage meters and very little difference to none.
IMO I would just go with a cr250 coil and a Pumashine or ESR coil mount and cut one of the round female plugs off and crimp a new female flat blade connector on.
other wise you will have to make a custom mount or drill your frame to mount the larger cr500 coil.
Dave could you explain to me how to test, the coil output?
I have access to just about any type of meter available, and im wanting to learn how to do what your talking about..
obviously checking the coil resistance, and peak voltage... but it sounds like somehow your actually checking the spark intensity...or are you just checking peck voltage with the different cdi's?? thanks
Barry
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Am I correct in assuming from all your info posted that if you purchase the service Honda kit and the ESR adapter plate you will end up with an ignition curve that has less timing than the 2001 CR250 curve. And in order to get more timing you will need to slot the holes on the new stator plate?
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Am I correct in assuming from all your info posted that if you purchase the service Honda kit and the ESR adapter plate you will end up with an ignition curve that has less timing than the 2001 CR250 curve. And in order to get more timing you will need to slot the holes on the new stator plate?
yes you are correct
edit:
I want to re-answer this question as I was incorrect because I had not yet removed the plates that center the stator at zero.
Typical Honda stators have a slotted top bolt hole and on the bottom a single hole centering plate that locates the stator. If you remove this plate then the the stator plate can rotate normally 4-5 degrees.
This Electrosport stator plate is different in it has 2 centering plates, I did not notice that they has sandwiched a top centering plate in between the bracket that holds the wires from the stator and pickup away from the flywheel.
When you remove both centering plates from the top and bottom then you can advance the stator plate just like a Honda stator plate which with no modifications you will get between 4-5 degrees advanced, if you want more than you need to slot the stator plate
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Dave could you explain to me how to test, the coil output?
I have access to just about any type of meter available, and im wanting to learn how to do what your talking about..
obviously checking the coil resistance, and peak voltage... but it sounds like somehow your actually checking the spark intensity...or are you just checking peck voltage with the different cdi's?? thanks
Barry
2 years ago I went after trying to actually figure out spark intensity on different CDI's, well I am pretty much still trying.
What I have used for testing different parts of the circuit from the stator - CDI - coil - spark plug
I spin the flywheel/stator/coil/spark plug assembly with a bench tester that can run from 500 rpms to 10,000 rpms
What I have for testing equipment is:
- Equus 5568 Pro-Timing Light
- TecMate's "Ignitionmate"
The compact dual-display peak-voltage ignition tester that makes trouble-shooting all types of spark ignition systems easier, surer, quicker.
Ignition signals are fast, high voltage, pulses of energy that can damage even a good digital multimeter whereas the IgnitionMate has been specially designed to measure and dynamically display both primary and secondary ignition signals on bright LED bargraph displays.
The application of this versatile tool is based on two basic points:
- Different types of ignition systems have the same basic components with signals measured being generally similar in nature and magnitude.
No disassembling of ignition components are required. (This avoids accidentally introducing, or correcting, poor contacts in the system, which may further confuse and delay resolution of the unidentified problems.)
- The power-sports vehicle industry’s most recommended problem-solving ignition trouble-shooting tool includes the following measurement options:
Primary low tension / peak volt 10, 40 or 400Vpk scales - use the RED & BLACK silicon tester cables to measure primary signals between the ICU and the power supply (battery or charge coil), timing pick-up (pulse coil or hall sensor), ignition coil and switches (key, emergency stop, footstand, throttle). The silicon tester cables are resistant to damage from hot engines or exhausts. Also included are insulated crocodile clips and special PROBULATOR back probes that allow easy connection (without damage) to in line cable connectors.
[/LIST]
Secondary high tension / peak volt 10, 20, 40 kV scales - use the caliper to measure high voltage between the ignition coil and the sparkplug. Use the +/- switch to determine the polarity of the high voltage signal. Normally single output coils have negative signals and dual output coils have negative and positive signals.
Spark scale to measure the consistency of the high voltage current signal and to determine misfires. The signal strength can be varied for display purposes. Spark strength of different cylinders can be compared.
The dual displays allow simultaneous measurement of two different ignition signals. This allows you to narrow down between which two points the problem lies.
(http://www.tecmate.com/images/products/IgnitionMate.jpg)
- Smarttach
TA100 Features
Tachometer function
- For 1 to 12 cylinders and 2 or 4 cycle engines
- Measures from 200 to 20000 RPM on a 4-1/2 digits LCD display
- Advanced microcontroller technology yields 0.5 % accuracy
- No sighting of rotating parts or hook-up required.
- Works on DIS, Conventional, Magneto and most spark ignition system.
Secondary ignition tester
- Instant digital readings from 0 to 40000 Volt
- Special antenna sensor allows quick hook-up to spark plug and ignition coil wires
- No ground wire connections required, for fast troubleshooting
- Multiple diagnostic applications are described in comprehensive User's Handbook (Included)
Simple and easy to use
- Tachometer: Set the number of cylinders and cycles, extend the antenna and hold the instrument about a foot above the ignition system. RPM is displayed.
- Secondary Ignition Voltage Tester: Hook the antenna sensor over a spark plug wire or coil. Peak voltage of the ignition pulse in kilovolts is displayed
Technical Specifications
- Display: Large 4-1/2 Digits LCD
- Tachometer Range: 200 to 19999 RPM
- # of Cylinders: 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10 and 12
- Cycles: 2 and 4 Cycles
- Accuracy: ± 0.5%
- Response time: 0.5 Seconds
- Ignition peak voltage range: 0 to 39.9 KVolt
- Antenna: Collapsible 5 sections with capacitive sensor pick up
- Secondary ignition pick up: Capacitive sensor
- Spark Ignition System: Distributor, Magneto and D.I.S.
- Power Source: One standard 9 Volt alkaline battery type NEDA 1604 IEC 6F 22
- Battery life: Approx. 200 hours of operation
- Power Saving: Auto power off after approximately 3 min. of inactivity
- Physical dimensions: 2.75" W x 5.35" L x 1" D - ( 69.9 x 135.9 x 25.4 mm )
- Weight: Approximately 6.2 Oz ( 180 g) Including battery
Electrical Specifications
- Maximum spark plug wire voltage (Through capacitive pickup only): 39.9 KVolt
(http://www.gtc.ca/images/TA100_OBS.jpg)
I also use a Fluke 73 and a Fluke 123 to measure current and voltage on the output of the CDI
I also have also tried using a high voltage probe with my flukes to measure actual spark output but not with much luck
(http://www.elexp.com/test/hvp40.jpg)
I am at work today and many of my old notes have been thrown away over the last few years but I will just say spark energy is not a easy thing to measure. I read up allot on the subject back then but there are many variables to account for.
The ignitionmate does a pretty good job with the output reading for spark energy but did see inconsistencies and the smart tach is a waste of money along with the high voltage probe.
After not being 100% satisfied with my spark out put I figured I would just measure amperage the coil was pulling on the primary side which is typically about 300v so the flukes can be directly connected in series with the coil and for the most part is pretty consistant but the capacitor's discharge does mess with the output reading.
So I then looked at the stator amperage along with the CDI amperage.
While for the most part everything was consistant with the meters but sometimes the outputs seamed as I will call strange, Like I said I am at work so I dont have what notes I have left but I do know while the MSD Enhancer CDI had the brightest and loadest spark it had strange low amperage readings so I feel that the meters were not always accurate.
I am not a electronics guy and I wish I knew someone close that could come by and work with me to truly analyze spark energy that these CDI put out.
I even played with one of these and boy the CDI's dont like the noise they make
(http://thetoolbar.net/contents/media/l_spark%20gap%20tester%2059086.jpg)
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yes you are correct
could someone explain this more? Tryin to figure out what i will have to do to make this kit work before i spend all that money,talking about having to slot the holes in the new stator plate
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When you look at the back side of the stator plates I posted you can see where the 2 bolts that mount the stator plate to the adapter plate are already slotted in the casted aluminum.
But on the front side of the Service Honda stator it has a steel plate over this slot on the bottom that located the stator plate to factory specs, this can be removed by taking the small Phillips head screw out. by removing this the slot is usable.
But the top also has a steel plate that can not be removed because it also is used to clamp and route wires away from the flywheel. this plate can be easiely slotted with a dremel. All you have to do is grind the steel plate to match the slot in the aluminum backer plate. By doing this you will have approximately 4-5 degrees of advance or retard depending on the direction you rotate the plate, rotate the plate clockwise to advance the timing.
If you look at my modified cr500 stator plate I posted you will notice the slots are even longer than the factories that plate will go around 9 degrees advanced if my memory serves me correct.
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OEM stator plates already have the top steel plate slotted and all you have to do is remove the bottom steel plate to allow for you to advance or retard the timing 4 degrees
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When you look at the back side of the stator plates I posted you can see where the 2 bolts that mount the stator plate to the adapter plate are already slotted in the casted aluminum.
But on the front side of the Service Honda stator it has a steel plate over this slot on the bottom that located the stator plate to factory specs, this can be removed by taking the small Phillips head screw out. by removing this the slot is usable.
But the top also has a steel plate that can not be removed because it also is used to clamp and route wires away from the flywheel. this plate can be easiely slotted with a dremel. All you have to do is grind the steel plate to match the slot in the aluminum backer plate. By doing this you will have approximately 4-5 degrees of advance or retard depending on the direction you rotate the plate, rotate the plate clockwise to advance the timing.
If you look at my modified cr500 stator plate I posted you will notice the slots are even longer than the factories that plate will go around 9 degrees advanced if my memory serves me correct.
ok thanks that helped alot
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so im guessing you center that slot on the 0 mark that they have marked on the ESR plate?
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before you slot anything you should make your own center mark that lines up with the esr mark
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before you slot anything you should make your own center mark that lines up with the esr mark
Ahh ok so when bolted up the way it comes with no mods make a mark on the stator plate that lines up with the ESR 0 mark and that will be 0 timing?
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Yes Sir!
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damn i wish you was close enough where i could buy this stuff and have you install it cause you seem to be the igniton guru...lol
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Hi guys. I was wondering if Electrosport make the cr500 kit for service Honda. would this be any good? http://www.electrosport.com/dirt-bikes/honda/cr250r-00-01/lighting-stator-cr-8-pole.html . and is it the same as the 50W option bdt is offering? although 50 watts is not that much it was wondering if it would be enough to run a 35w hid and taillight if I add a battery?
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hard to say if it would be a good choice, service Honda says theirs is a 100w that stator is only 50w so i guess it depends on your lighting needs.
But what does have me wondering is the power to the cdi, the amount of coils they have is half of OEM so if the coils are wrapped with the same amount turns then the voltage to the CDI is going to be close to half. This would be probably ok at the upper rpms but low rpms would have a much weaker spark. They can use finer wire with more turns to increase the voltage but amperage goes down and high rpms it may have voltage run to high for the OEM CDI.
I am not a electronics guy so I really dont want to say Electrosport is selling something that does not work, but what I am saying is you are giving up something some where to gain something which in this case a lighting coil.
The service Honda unit more than likely is a High voltage low amp CDI setup, with the added lighting coil. (high voltage cdi's are what your factory trx CDI is)
The 00-01 OEM CDI are a lower voltage higher amp setup.
The 02-and later OEM CDI are still even lower voltage with higher amps than the 00-01's
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heres is the Service Honda / BDT lighting coil CR ignition with added timing
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/bdt2_zps07a6d8d0.jpg)
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/bdt4_zpsc5c66e74.jpg)
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/bdt6_zpsb954cee8.jpg)
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/bdt8_zps9bce24e4.jpg)
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I degreed and slotted Jim's stator plate today -4 to +8 degrees in 1 degree increments
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/IMG_20130714_144726_zps1287efc4.jpg)
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Very cool. is that the 50 watt cr250 stator or the cr500 style ?
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in the graphs I mean.
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The graphs are the service Honda cr500 unit with 100w of power that BDT rebadges as their own :distrust:
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I wish I would have bought that instead of the cr250 ign. but the cr500 ignition looks a little harder to start By the looks of that youtube vid . I might need motofools external generator.
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I think with the timing advanced it may start a little easier, at least that was derby's experience, plus a cr500 kicker I think kicks the motor over slightly slower due to it being geared for a larger displacement motor.
Will be curious how it works out for Jim
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service honda supposedly has or had a new ign setup that is supposed to be better than the old version. the old setup was a pile of crap. rode with a dude at glamis that used one. broke down at the bottom of olds hill. kicked it for a hour
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And I'm sure the " service honda kit " has an extreame mark up added to it from the other guy?? Lol
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service honda supposedly has or had a new ign setup that is supposed to be better than the old version. the old setup was a pile of crap. rode with a dude at glamis that used one. broke down at the bottom of olds hill. kicked it for a hour
this piece is the brand new version that service honda had electrosport build
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Am I correct in assuming from all your info posted that if you purchase the service Honda kit and the ESR adapter plate you will end up with an ignition curve that has less timing than the 2001 CR250 curve. And in order to get more timing you will need to slot the holes on the new stator plate?
I want to re-answer this question as I was incorrect because I had not yet removed the plates that center the stator at zero.
Typical Honda stators have a slotted top bolt hole and on the bottom a single hole centering plate that locates the stator. If you remove this plate then the the stator plate can rotate normally 4-5 degrees.
This Electrosport stator plate is different in it has 2 centering plates, I did not notice that they has sandwiched a top centering plate in between the bracket that holds the wires from the stator and pickup away from the flywheel.
When you remove both centering plates from the top and bottom then you can advance the stator plate just like a Honda stator plate which with no modifications you will get between 4-5 degrees advanced, if you want more than you need to slot the stator plate
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Always enjoy reading about Dave's ignition stuff. Learned a lot right here. Might have to look at the service honda setup for my sphynx.
How much more of a markup is the BDT setup compared to being straight from Service Honda?
Nick
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Not sure if you have seen but I did map 8 of the 10 programmable votex maps for the TRX250R, my tester had a malfuntion before I could finsh maps 9 and 10
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Not sure if you have seen but I did map 8 of the 10 programmable votex maps for the TRX250R, my tester had a malfuntion before I could finsh maps 9 and 10
Can we get that info brought over here too and sticky all the ignition stuff? The thread on the other site seems to have lost the pics.
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all ready here in the tech section http://trx250r.org/showthread.php?96-Ign-maps
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Dave im gonna send you my external Lighting coil setup when i get back to alabama in a couple weeks
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OK pm me when you are ready
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After having read through this thread I am still trying to decide whether to go with an 01 CR 250 ignition or the CR 500 ignition from Service Honda. The CR 500 system is apparently made by Electrosports so I'm wondering about their quality? It seems like I got a stator from them a few years back for a Tecate and it didn't last long. I know Honda OEM quality is good but I'm not sure about Electrosports. Is their stuff made on the cheap in China?
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Unfortunately any of the aftermarket stators are going to be from china, the question will be are they from a good Chinese manufacturer, only time will answer that.
But I have not heard of any bad ones yet, but its still early in the game.
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Unfortunately any of the aftermarket stators are going to be from china, the question will be are they from a good Chinese manufacturer, only time will answer that.
But I have not heard of any bad ones yet, but its still early in the game.
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Any word on which setup--the OEM CR 250 or CR 500 with lights--works better with the TRX? Studying the timing curves is interesting but I'm wondering if there is a bottom line? The difference in the timing curves seems to be below 1000 rpm and above 9000 rpm, otherwise they are pretty similar. Service Honda sells the CR 500 system for $530, which is pretty good compared to OEM. I'd rather spend a little more on OEM, however, if it is the better setup.
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bottom line is every motor combination has different timing needs, its not as simple as what year is the best for everyone. Your porting,engine size,pipe and dome all have a factor in what your timing needs are.
The whole reason you have advanced timing and take it away as the rpms increase is because the efficiency of the motor increases with rpms so less ignition advance is needed. Not every motor will need the same amount at a certain RPM it all depends on combustion efficiency.
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I know this is a speculative question but do you think the added weight (200g) to the CR 500 ignition would offer the equivalent inertia of the stock TRX rotor? I'm looking for a quicker reving engine so I'm disappointed the weight appears to be stamped on. I suppose I could get an OEM rotor off ebay but then the pulse trigger is shorter and I don't know it that would create problems.
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I believe it will still accelerate much faster than the TRX flywheel running with the small CR flywheel even with the added 200 grams because of its diameter
I did not weight a TRX flywheel but they are not light and should have more inertia
The flywheel for the CR can be lightened also if does not rev as much as you hoped for, but there are many times you will wish you still had some of that inertia of the big TRX flywheel. Remember the heavy flywheels absorbs energy but does give it back.
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Here are the pictures of the CR 500 ign with lights. It mounts in the stock location with the OEM rubber holders and all wires are used other than the tach input. Engine is new to me so I cant compare how it starts but there is no kickback even when
it back fires out the exhaust. Engine sounds very crisp and will idle forever if you let it. As you can see I am still in a neck
brace due to a bad crash in April and have not ridden it yet but I will give a ride report as soon as possible.
I want to thank RSSS396 for all of his help, Jim
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Also I mounted ignition coil on left side of quad or I would have had to lenghten coil wires.
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Are you using the cr 250r ignition stator mounting plate (looks to be ESR) with the cr500 ignition ?
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Tony
That is an old picture with a cr 250 adapter from BTD. They sent me a new adaptor for the cr 500 ign but I dont have a picture of it. to much pain meds and lack of concentration. The cr 500 adaptor is very similar.
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Jim I thought I remember the adapter being the same as esr's
I know they are different between cr500 and cr250 but you just normally run a small ring to adapt the larger recess of the cr250 to the cr500. But I just might be wrong on that, do you still have both adapter plates?
Good to see you around you have not posted in awhile, glad you got the halo off!
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Jim I thought I remember the adapter being the same as esr's
I know they are different between cr500 and cr250 but you just normally run a small ring to adapt the larger recess of the cr250 to the cr500. But I just might be wrong on that, do you still have both adapter plates?
Good to see you around you have not posted in awhile, glad you got the halo off!
You are correct I had to read this post from the beginning the adaptor plate is the same
Thank god that halo is off I dont think I could have handled it much longer !!!!!
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So how's it going bud, any up dates on the bike.