TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: F-Red on July 10, 2013, 01:36:56 PM
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Hey Boys, It's nice to be here! Feels like I'm dating, a new girl! Let's get to it.
I purchased a 330 Non-Bolt on kit, from ESR back in January. The first piston with plenty of heat cycles, then some slow riding around the yard.
Went out for the first good ride. Engine was always up to running temperature. 15 mins. into the ride 4th gear under some power, she locked up.
I sent it back to ESR, they couldn't explain any reason for the seizure. They honed the cylinder, said it had good clearance I can't
remember what it was, I roughly measured the piston and cylinder, it was .0065, sent another 76mm piston. The second piston, I was even more
cautious then the first time. After some good ride time, maybe 2hrs. total, she locked up again. Four corner seizure. This time I had a local guy,
that has bored some cylinders in the past, do the work. For the third piston, I had to use a 77mm. When the machinist started the bore, you good see
how the original bore job was so out of round. He gave me .0045 clearance. She ran very well, I was loving the ride. Then it happen again, after 5hrs.
of run time. I have some investment in this cylinder with Neil's porting. I would like to try, one more time. Maybe it is a overheating issue.
What about slowing down the coolant flow, at the intake side? I’ve heard you can epoxy the back side of the head, then drill out some holes, to resemble
the stock head gasket.
Thanks, Fred.
Pump Gas Dome
Ran Non-Ethanol 91 (The third piston, mixed 50/50 91 w/ 110 )
Leak Down Test (Held 6lbs. for ever each build)
Used Timing Light (Advanced 5-6 degrees) ESR CR Ignition
Stock, but clean radiator
Stock Stroke
Running Temp 180 deg. (200+ @ Seizure)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/7876DD80-FF17-4A55-B173-BC40FD87EF63-2062-000001E5B6514E20.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/7876DD80-FF17-4A55-B173-BC40FD87EF63-2062-000001E5B6514E20.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/98E27F28-B625-45B8-98B7-E6FE216A1D37-2062-000001E5B31E9CAC.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/98E27F28-B625-45B8-98B7-E6FE216A1D37-2062-000001E5B31E9CAC.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/99C4F346-F07B-4417-A27F-E1DD1721D103-2062-000001E5AFA00BF7.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/99C4F346-F07B-4417-A27F-E1DD1721D103-2062-000001E5AFA00BF7.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/B2127E2D-AFAB-4E70-9963-69E287F477F1-2062-000001E5ABD33479.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/B2127E2D-AFAB-4E70-9963-69E287F477F1-2062-000001E5ABD33479.jpg.html)
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I had this happen to me 6 times in a row on a ESR 330 PV bolt on kit. THe last time ESR put a new sleeve in it for free. I had sent it out to get some port work done to it, and USPS dropped my box and ruined the cylinder. I got a full refund (thanks to insurance) and they kept my cylinder. So obviously i have no idea if it was ever fixed.
But basically mine did just what your saying. I would break it in, run it around at home and test it. Take it to the track and it would lock up on lap 2-3. I even did a 450 degree bake (multiple steps per C-Leigh) on one of my pistons thinking that my forged pistons where growing more than the standard cast ones i was used to. Didnt really help.
I hope you get it figured out, maybe someone will have some actual advice(I dont have any to help) Sorry.
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I don't have a real answer but I think your on track with the over heating thing .the top of your piston has no transfer wash suggesting that you could run richer on the jetting.I was wondering what the butt gap on the rings were.I ask because of the strange blowby markings at the ring ends
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SIX TIMES!!! I thought I had it bad. It's so frustrating. My son builds dirt bike top end's for the neighborhood kids. No leak down, no break in, just starts it and hands it back. They run the poop out of them, never a problem.
I'm going to try reducing, the coolant flow to the intake side. And I also heard, maybe hogging out the front water jacket. There is alot of meat in that area for the power valve. Do you run a stock radiator? Thanks for your input.
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the only big bore I have is one of the original ct 310 and it has a stock rad. with no overheating ,not a good comparison
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I think you will get better help when some of the bigbore guys get on this thread. when I was young I did the same as your son and the crap would run for ever
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can you post a picture of the esr head bottom side, i would like to see the dome surface and the coolant passage sizes
The piston is melted away some on the exhaust side so you need more fuel IMO
now running a very hot motor would require more fuel than normal to keep it alive so its very hard to jet a bike that overheats.
HP decreases over 150 degrees and but that does not mean you are over heating just losing power, but when you start getting around 200 you are getting pretty hot IMO
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I'm going to try reducing, the coolant flow to the intake side. And I also heard, maybe hogging out the front water jacket. There is alot of meat in that area for the power valve..
I know ****** touched on this subject about the ESR cylinders having allot of aluminum around the power valve area and I would agree that this needs to be removed to help cool the piston and cylinder better in that area. this should be done fairly easy with a drill bit if you do not have access to a milling machine with a rotary table.
I would not reduce water flow but instead direct more flow up and around the exhaust port for better cooling
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hey I did not know carla's name was blocked
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I don't have a real answer but I think your on track with the over heating thing .the top of your piston has no transfer wash suggesting that you could run richer on the jetting.I was wondering what the butt gap on the rings were.I ask because of the strange blowby markings at the ring ends
I don't remember off hand, but the rule of .004 per inch of bore. I was within the range.
when I was young I did the same as your son and the crap would run for ever
I know, it freakin kills me! I try to do everything properly, with all the procedures. I still have failure! :sign0065:
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Did you presure test the coolant system? In dec 2011 there were some cyl that had a possible coolant leak through the ex stud. I had one from this same batch and mine didn't but there were a couple that posted about it in early 2012. That same thing has been seen on some prox in the past as well. Anyway, you posted in early 2012 about having neil do a esr up for you so if this is the same cyl check for a possible coolant leak in the ex stud area.
Good Luck
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can you post a picture of the esr head bottom side, i would like to see the dome surface and the coolant passage sizes
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-8.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-8.jpg.html)
This one is from the bottom side! :eek-new:
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/hump-day-11.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/hump-day-11.jpg.html)
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Did you presure test the coolant system? In dec 2011 there were some cyl that had a possible coolant leak through the ex stud. I had one from this same batch and mine didn't but there were a couple that posted about it in early 2012. That same thing has been seen on some prox in the past as well. Anyway, you posted in early 2012 about having neil do a esr up for you so if this is the same cyl check for a possible coolant leak in the ex stud area.
Good Luck
Yes, I forgot to mention, it was January of 2012. It is the same cylinder. I did not presure test the system. I have a lot to do.
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Check it for sure. There were a few reports from around dec 2011 of a possible leak from the ex stud threads breaking into the water jacket on a few cylinders that could possibly lead to some misc problems. Seal the threads up when putting it back together and always do all of the leak tests.
Good luck.
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Bottom side looks good to me :unconscious:
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would you consider blocking the intake side water passage right at the rear of the head
or even blocking the rear 3 passages then milling or making only a trench equal to a 1/4 hole?
The cylinder IMO would benefit more from coolant flow being increased toward the front of the cylinder wear the exhaust port is.
Prodesign coolheads with o-rings for the CR500's that have the water entering the rear of the cylinder like the 250r create this short circuit also.
It does look like ESR restricts this flow better than cool-head did but it does seam to have room for improvement.
To block the passages you would use a epoxy to fill the hole then mill smaller slots for new smaller passages.
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And yes the bottom side does look just right maybe we should check the top side :)
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On my stock cylinder with o-ring cool head I blocked off the 3 intake side coolant jackets with aluminum epoxy and then drilled them out to match the holes in the stock head gasket. So far so good. I got the idea from Jason all250r's forum but its not working so I can't show the link with pictures. I like how the CR250 pushes water right from the water pump to the front of the cylinder and up through the exhaust port jackets, this would be the ideal setup. Interestingly my pro-x jug has two plugs under the exhaust water jacket does the ESR cylinder have this?
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Yes the front of the cylinder should be cooled first, the cr500's switched to a front side inlet to achieve better exhaust port side cooling like the cr250 did, its to bad CP did not do this on their cylinders for the 250r.
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Check it for sure. There were a few reports from around dec 2011 of a possible leak from the ex stud threads breaking into the water jacket on a few cylinders that could pooibly lead to some misc problems. Seal the threads up when putting it back together and always do all of the leak tests.
Good luck.
I'll check this out.
would you consider blocking the intake side water passage right at the rear of the head
or even blocking the rear 3 passages then milling or making only a trench equal to a 1/4 hole?
The cylinder IMO would benefit more from coolant flow being increased toward the front of the cylinder wear the exhaust port is.
Prodesign coolheads with o-rings for the CR500's that have the water entering the rear of the cylinder like the 250r create this short circuit also.
It does look like ESR restricts this flow better than cool-head did but it does seam to have room for improvement.
To block the passages you would use a epoxy to fill the hole then mill smaller slots for new smaller passages.
That's what I'm going to do. Epoxy up the three back ports and mill out a slot.
And yes the bottom side does look just right maybe we should check the top side :)
Top sides fine too!
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/G%20Pics/Oh1.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/G%20Pics/Oh1.jpg.html)
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Here is the epoxy I used, the H-450 kit: http://www.hypoxy.com/aluminum_repair_kits.htm
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Interestingly my pro-x jug has two plugs under the exhaust water jacket does the ESR cylinder have this?
I don't understand, where this is on the jug?
Here is the epoxy I used, the H-450 kit: http://www.hypoxy.com/aluminum_repair_kits.htm
What size kit did you use? Approximately, how much was needed?
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I don't understand, where this is on the jug?
Under the front, the pocket that gets covered with the base gasket.
What size kit did you use? Approximately, how much was needed?
The H-450 6.5oz kit. It didn't take much.
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Same situation I've got goin on. On 3rd set up for my esr310 cylinder payed to send it back to them twice and have price piston kits. So definitely got more tied up then I wanted too in this cylinder. They claimed I musta been sucking dirt. (That was not the case to say the least) Then it went from that to I wasn't running there piston Tom said.i believe they definitely have casting issues mine keep locking up on exhaust side with race fuel n rich jetting to boot and it was there pump gas dome setup. Did it within first hour of first run both times. If you look up in around exhaust port there casting leaves a lot to be desired. Esr agreed to send me a replacement cylinder but that was in end of march and it still has not showed lol. Every time I call time I get some sorta excuse about how busy Eddie is. There customer service leaves a lot to be desired.
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Under the front, the pocket that gets covered with the base gasket.
I'll check.
The H-450 6.5oz kit. It didn't take much.
Thanks.
Same situation I've got goin on. On 3rd set up for my esr310 cylinder payed to send it back to them twice and have price piston kits. So definitely got more tied up then I wanted too in this cylinder. They claimed I musta been sucking dirt. (That was not the case to say the least) Then it went from that to I wasn't running there piston Tom said.i believe they definitely have casting issues mine keep locking up on exhaust side with race fuel n rich jetting to boot and it was there pump gas dome setup. Did it within first hour of first run both times. If you look up in around exhaust port there casting leaves a lot to be desired. Esr agreed to send me a replacement cylinder but that was in end of march and it still has not showed lol. Every time I call time I get some sorta excuse about how busy Eddie is. There customer service leaves a lot to be desired.
Sorry for your misfortune. It makes one feel a little better, that it isn't just me. This will be my last time, if it doesn't work, using this cylinder.
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Yeah not trying to rain on your parade but I couldn't get cylinder to work. Shipping and piston kits get expensive anyway. Put my lrd prox 310 on and never had a prob since. Just figured I try esr out for the price but shoulda invested money somewhere else instead of there cylinder kit. It's good they make cylinder kits for the r though I give them that. I'll be happy if they hold up to there end of the deal and send my replacement. Will see I guess. Been 3.5 months now already. Good thing I had other cylinders to run. It's good you have Neil's porting too you prolly wouldn't have been happy with their precast ports either.
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Have a look in the coolant passage under the Stud boss on the exhaust side.....Does it look like this ?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]322[/ATTACH]
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If so....you need to open it up to at least 1/4" gap.....Like this :)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]323[/ATTACH]
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It's good you have Neil's porting too you prolly wouldn't have been happy with their precast ports either.
Neil's porting is awesome. This thing was quick and would pull to the moon. That's why I'm trying to do everything possible, to save it from the sledge hammer! :fighting0061:
If so....you need to open it up to at least 1/4" gap.....Like this :)
I'll look tonight. So you would remove material, down towards the powervalve casting area?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]323[/ATTACH]
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mines been at crankworks about 5weeks. starting to get worried. needed some machinning but nothing that couldnt be done in a few hours. worst case they dropped it on the floor and cant find a replacment. best case theyre just slow with 100 cranks in front of me
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Have a look in the coolant passage under the Stud boss on the exhaust side.....Does it look like this ?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]322[/ATTACH]
Mine looks worst then your pic.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-1.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-1.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-9.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-9.jpg.html)
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if it was me I measure the exhaust port height from the deck subtract a .250-.375" and drill or mill down that deep to get the coolant down closerto the exhaust port.
Also make sure there is good flow from the sides of the cylinder under the studs, you want to promote as much coolant flow thru the front area(exhaust port) of the cylinder.
The aprilia 125cc motor in the mid 50hp range had extensive cooling on the front side of the cylinder, the cooling was never a after thought in their design.
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You can remove that much material, from the top of the exhaust port, through the water jacket?
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IMO it would be fine but to play it safe measure a stock cylinders water jacket depth above the exhaust port to the height of the ID of the exhaust port. And use that thickness as your gauge, remember the non power valve cylinders are filled full of aluminum so they can have a blade in there but since you do not have a blade it's just a bunch of filler that slows heat transfer.
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Obviously if you left extra material it would allow for higher port timing in the future if you ever decided to build a more drag like cylinder
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Mine looks worst then your pic.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/null-10.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/null-10.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/null-9.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/null-9.jpg.html)
Your pics are in a Private Album.....How can we see them ?
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I'm no expert but that Top side and Bottom side look in spec to me!:pirate:
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I'm no expert but that Top side and Bottom side look in spec to me!:pirate:
right on.
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My ESR 330 did this 3 times also. On the third time the sleeve cracked in a couple spots in the o ring groove and will probably need to be re sleeved to save it. I'm in the same boat as I have a lot of money (porting) in this cylinder and have about 3-4 hours on it. Went back to my stock cylinder for now, but it's not nearly as fun... Saving up for a Sphynx for now.
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Your pics are in a Private Album.....How can we see them ?
Sorry. I moved the pictures within the album, once I posted them. Breaking the link. Operator error. :chargrined:
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-1.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-1.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-9.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-9.jpg.html)
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With ESR being a site sponsor now....maybe they can comment....Does this look like there's too much Aluminum around the exhaust area in that coolant passage....I know from experience that opening up that area created more flow and lower coolant temps on the exhaust side and stopped the premature seizures.
Have they updated their cylinder molds ?
So if we purchase a NEW 330cc non Power Valve Cylinder we won't have this problem again.... :)
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Could you please post some pics of what your dome looks like. Are you using the same dome every time this has happened?
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With ESR being a site sponsor now....maybe they can comment...
Not to derail this thread but ESR does not have time to be on the forums. They requested a banner only and not a forum section. You must all be aware that 2 guys cannot answer all your questions while building the most economical 250r parts available in the U.S. today. You can bet that if Eddie had the time he would answer each and every question you could possibly have. Thanks for understanding, Tony
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I too went through multiple problems with my ESR330 non bolt on. It would seize up after maybe 3 or 4 hours or easy riding. I believe I went throu 4 pistons and finally gave up. I couldnt keep the O rings in the head either. I was blowing those out about every other ride. On the last piston I ended up pulling 2 head studs out from all the on-off of the head and gave up. It is still sitting in my shed to this day. Been very happy with my Sphinx so far. Good luck with the cylinder. Hopefully everything works out for you.
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Could you please post some pics of what your dome looks like. Are you using the same dome every time this has happened?
I posted that picture on the first page. I broke the link, when I moved the picture, in my library. Pic reposted. Same head and insert, every time.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-8.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null-8.jpg.html)
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I too went through multiple problems with my ESR330 non bolt on. It would seize up after maybe 3 or 4 hours or easy riding. I believe I went throu 4 pistons and finally gave up. I couldnt keep the O rings in the head either. I was blowing those out about every other ride. On the last piston I ended up pulling 2 head studs out from all the on-off of the head and gave up. It is still sitting in my shed to this day. Been very happy with my Sphinx so far. Good luck with the cylinder. Hopefully everything works out for you.
It does suck! I'm going to try and open up the water passage around the exhaust port. Maybe block off some flow, around the intake, in the head. I want a Sphinx, but my wife would shoot me and burn the "R" right now. If this ESR doesn't work out, Sphinx for Chirstmas! :glee: Thanks for the luck!
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ESR does not have time to be on the forums. They requested a banner only and not a forum section. You must all be aware that 2 guys cannot answer all your questions while building the most economical 250r parts available in the U.S. today. You can bet that if Eddie had the time he would answer each and every question you could possibly have. Thanks for understanding, Tony
Sorry Tony .....it was just wishful thinking I guess....I thought it was gonna be kinda like Neil - C-Leigh Racing - where we could have a section where we ask questions and they could reply....I understand they're way too busy....maybe as time passes they'll be able to have more time or be able to answer our questions here....here's hoping :)
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F-red I was just reading your post. Why do you have your cr ig advanced 5-6 deg? Shouldn't it be at zero?
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F-red I was just reading your post. Why do you have your cr ig advanced 5-6 deg? Shouldn't it be at zero?
That was Uncle Neil's recommendation. He said between 4-6 degrees. From what Neil has told me, ESR's adapter plate (using their stock setting), full retard postion, is still 5-6 degrees.
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I think you should call esr on this to confirm. Might be the root of your current problem that you have been having. Worth a call to check on anyway.
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Done that, Tom couldn't tell me. :apologetic:
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So when you have your cr ignition mounted do you have the factory locating plate installed on the bottom held on with a single phillips head screw and the 6mm stator bolt?
Like I said in another thread, I have had 4 adapter plates for these ignitions and they were all the same with 0 degrees of advance at the stator plate. They locate the stator in the same position as it was mounted in a cr250 case.
IMO if you look at the piston edge that is burned away in your picture it shows a lean condition. while to much timing can compound a lean condition by moving heat from the pipe to the piston, typically a motor with to much advance will detonate,and/or melt the center of a piston and/or burn ground straps on the plug.
Too lean of fuel will almost always burn away the exhaust side of the piston
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The ignition is mounted to the fixed ESR plate. Held on as shown. I trust your opinion on the timing. Just confused. The last pic shows the timimg marks off idle. To me it is firing before TDC. Should be good, no?
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/StatorTimingMarks250R2.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/StatorTimingMarks250R2.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/TimingMarksOffIdle.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/TimingMarksOffIdle.jpg.html)
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Are you sure that your picture is not deceiving you or when you look at the mounting plate and adapter plate, I know when I sent jim a picture of his stator plate that I machined it looked like the Zero line did not line up the lineon the adapter plate but when you looked at it in person or took a picture at a differant angle they did.
But lets say your picture is accurate then it is still only 1-2 degrees advanced, if you look at the picture of the stator plate I did on the Service Honda Ign you can get a idea how much 1-2 degrees would be.
On your picture of the flywheel, I would guess that the amount of timing advance to be 9-10 degrees which if you look at my timing graphs 9 degrees is how much you should see.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab265/rsss396/250r%20site/IMG_20130714_144726_zps1287efc4.jpg)
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It's be well over a year, since I was trying to time this beast. A lot of uncertainty for sure. Once I have it back together and running, I'll be checking the timing again. Something is not right, That last pic of mine
is in full retard postion. You say it looks like 9-10 degrees adavanced. I'll figure it out. And thanks for your advice and time Dave. :joyous:
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That just a guess looking at a picture and then 9-10 degrees is only at the very low rpms. cr250 ignitions should be 20 degrees advanced at a more typical 2000 rpm idle.
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I didn't read any mention of possible bad crank seals. I had an engine do this with several different cylinders and what was happening in my case was the stator side was sucking air at high RPM leaning the engine out. I could ride mine anywhere from 30 minutes to 5 hours between seizures. After some new crank seals and some epilepsy medication, my problem was fixed.
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I didn't read any mention of possible bad crank seals. I had an engine do this with several different cylinders and what was happening in my case was the stator side was sucking air at high RPM leaning the engine out. I could ride mine anywhere from 30 minutes to 5 hours between seizures. After some new crank seals and some epilepsy medication, my problem was fixed.
In the first post, I mentioned the leak down test passed each time.
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Just thought I'd update you guys I posted awhile back about my cylinder issues. Called esr back again today it has been since march they have had this cylinder mind ya lol. So anyway I talk to Tom and he puts me on hold like usual. So I figured no biggie he was just thinking up an excuse like he usually does the most recent excuse is sleeves are on back order or Eddie is gonna get to it this week I promise. Those are the excuses I usually get its always something.Been so many over the numerous phone calls I can't remember them all.So anyway he gets back on the phone and says Eddie said he's not gonna honor the deal we had worked out 5 months ago (for all the times this cylinder had been shipped backed to them and the piston kits I paid for out of my pocke and not to count all the down time) because I was on the forums running my mouth was Tom exact words. So I said you gotta be kiddin me you shoulda just shipped it back 5 months ago and stoppwd wasting my time. What a piss poor way to run a business. Needless to say after words were exchanged he hung up on me so I called back and asked for Eddie like I have numerous times before and he of course couldn't take my call. Tom called me a **** bird and I was just tryin to get something for nothing and hung the phone up lol. What a guy. So there sending my cylinder back and it will be a door stop cause I'm not sinking another dollar into it. With all the extra money I put into this cylinder I shoulda just had led work me up one cause Tom said theirs was cheaper and ran just as good and I fell for it lol. I'll just continue running my older lrd prox 310 which wiped the floor anyway with that esr mess. Thanx a lot Tom and Eddie hopefully your cylinders have improved since mine cause mine sure as heck never ran long enough to say so. Mine always hung up on the exhaust side with rich jetting and 50/50 race cut on there pump gas setup. Sorry for the winded post but I had to vent this all took place about and hour ago.
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bj
If they were going to replace something that they did not believe that they needed to but were just going to for customer service and then while waiting you bashed them on the forum, well that can change things. Thats just a thought that I got from your posts.
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That sucks, But if it was mine I would take things into my own hands and figure out whats going on.
I know ESR is very safe with there dome designs and being only a 310 you should be able to bolt any pipe on it.
So the 2 things I would want to chase is fuel and heat.
A part throttle lean condition is always the toughest to figure out because depending on load and how long you are at that position can be the difference between it burning down or not.
Even the factories struggle with this, my 03 700 EFI Firecat had a lean spot that many people had issues burning them down from holding the throttle constant at one position, I almost never do that and it never gave any issues even after I installed restrictors in the fuel line to the injectors to cut fuel on the topend.
The second issue with heat is make sure you have a good radiator, preferably a aftermarket, run a low percentage of antifreeze or other special coolants that are available.
Then go after removing material above the exhaust port if you do not have the exhaust valve, this will pull heat from the piston keeping it cool.
This could probably be done by most any machine shop for 50-100.00 or even yourself on a drill press if you take your time.
Its not rocket science it removing a certain amount of material at a determined depth.
Then I would take the Head and fill with epoxy the water pocket cutouts that are above the cylinder water jacket slots.
Take a factory gasket and measure the hole sizes they use to restrict the water flow in a stock cylinder setup.
Take these sizes and slot the epoxy you have used to fill the head pockets and if you increase flow anywhere make it in the pocket above the exhaust port
If you decide to do this there will be plenty of help here to guide you threw it
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from the photos the water jacket front area looks restricted from the PV material cast in there. they should have a slightly modified casting for the cylinders not using the PV
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Sounds like the water jackets recieved some attention. They have a newest design as they put it that has the water jackets mech out more and the base nut seats mech out better.
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This is nice to know (but may not pertain to my cyl.)since I have a new 350pv kit on its way for my R.
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I know its hard to believe, but those little casting dimples down in the coolant jacket, will help in removing heat from the casting. Just like a fin on an old A/C engine cylinder, thinner & longer they are more heat the fin will remove.
Fred, so your running the ignition with the little metal plate on the CR stator plate still in place ?.
I dont know your year of CR ignition, but on the ignition on my daughters R, I had that little metal plate removed, stator plate set to full retard setting, used a dial indicator in the plug hole to find TDC, then scribed a mark on the case to aline with the TDC mark on the CR flywheel, soap stoned both marks & then used a timing light to check ignition timing.
With the metal plate removed & stator plate set at full retard, timing was still around 8 to 10* advance at idle speed & would retard just a little as the engine reved.
That was with the CR ignition set up on my daughters R, if its same as yours I have no idea.
I'll add as rsss, that melt away on the top exhaust side edge of the piston, is a good indicator of deto if it be from lean heat or to low an octane gas heat.
I've seen many performance engines destroyed, from melted pistons on the exhaust side edge from to low of an octane gas being used.
I say this again, just as I've said many times, when you lift that pump nozzle up out of its holder on a pump at a gas station, do you know for sure if the tanker driver that delivered the last load of gas to that station, if he dropped the right product in the right holding tank ???.
The answer is no of course & you wont know until it damages your engine, so any of you using pump gas are taking a chance on a performance built engine.
Some questions,
When you pressure tested, did you have the exhaust flange in place & if so was it sealed between the cylinder casting & the flange.
Was the pipe sealed good, where it connects the exhaust flange with a high heat type silicone, & if so, did you allow that sealant like a day & night to cure out before running the engine.
If your using the new type machined ESR piston, that piston has the wrist pin hole moved forward 5mm, so it offsets the timing by the hole being moved forward to the exhaust port.
Neil
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Neil, long time no hear. How you feeling these days? You and I conversed through email's, about all of the issues you've mentioned. I have to believe now, that i'm dealing with a heat issue.
Hopefully in a couple of weeks, I'll be able to start, buying some parts and give this cylinder one last try. It will be ashame, if your beautifully done port work, has to become a door stop.
Thanks for reading, Fred. :sign0188:
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Do one check before you give up on it.
When you get the next new piston, check the depth of the ring pin locator down in the ring grooves, then do the same on that last piston messed up, see if the ring pin has backed out of its hole.
One of the pics of your cylinder, theres a scrape line in the bore right where the locator pin is located & if it backed out, it could cause a piston to loose clearance on the exhaust side from the ring bulging out.
Wiseco suppose to have fixed that problem, those pins backing out, but who knows.
Had that same problem with a Wossnor some time back, had to eat it & pistons are hard to chew & ruff on teeth. Not bought a Wossnor since.
Neil
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I will check that out. Thanks Neil.
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Update: Opened up the front water passages.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null_zps97f12294.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null_zps97f12294.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null_zps07522f64.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null_zps07522f64.jpg.html)
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That'll help BIG TIME!....You might also consider drilling some oiling holes in the Piston (similar to the ones we used to do for the bridged intake) so the piston will cool a bit on either side of the exhaust port between the secondary exhaust & main exhaust. That'll help the piston from not sticking in that area. Good luck and keep us posted on your results. :)
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It has to help, right? The new ESR pistons, don't have the three rows of oil holes. Just one row down the middle. I thought about added more, than decided not to. I did talk to Eddie at ESR, he thinks it is the fuel I was using. I'm going to use straight race fuel, no mixing with pump gas. Uncle Neil will be happy! :applouse:
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the water passage looks much better and defiantly cant hurt.
I think the extra holes would not hurt in the piston either, you do not have to make them very large or chamfer them much like some do.
race fuel is a good idea or maybe even aviation fuel
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I was thinking about trying 100LL. There is a general airport very close to me. $5.90 a gal. Are there any negatives, to using Av gas?
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i never tried avgas but theres quit a bit of info out there to read. pros and cons depending who you ask and what article you look at. i read something the other day that mentioned if its real high in lead it could accumulate on the ballbarings . but im not sure how high of lead content they were talking about. but ya you find alot of folks like it and probly just as many that say dont use it. its like any oil thread. 16 pages in and not much has been accomplished
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aviation gas is not a race gas but its better than any pump premium out there.
VP C12 will make better power but will cost you allot of money so if its hard to get good race gas then at least try the aviation fuel and see if it works.
But of course if you are looking for the edge on the competition and want to squeeze everything you can out of the bike then better fuel is the best choice, of course if you have low compression then race fuel will not do much for you except insure a quality fuel.
But IMO that is the advantage of aviation fuel over pump gas premium, at least you know the fuel will be consistent, they have much more stringent rules on their fuel when it comes to consistency
In the tech section there is a write up or two on av fuel
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I used to run av gas in my R & never had any issues but since I got a stable job with no fear of winter layoff's I now only run race gas:joyous:
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I don't need the octane, just a quality fuel. The throttle responds using avgas in the article Dave posted, gives me a little reservation.
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It has to help, right? The new ESR pistons, don't have the three rows of oil holes. Just one row down the middle. I thought about added more, than decided not to. I did talk to Eddie at ESR, he thinks it is the fuel I was using. I'm going to use straight race fuel, no mixing with pump gas. Uncle Neil will be happy! :applouse:
OH YES, any time you use a good quality race gas, instead of the governments pocket filling ethanol crap pump gas, it makes me happy.
Do the gas companys care if that junk pump gas destroys your beloved 2 stroke engine, NO!, does the government, NO!, just another thing to rob the American public & make the rich even richer.
Neil
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The new ESR pistons, don't have the three rows of oil holes. Just one row down the middle. :applouse:
Your Cylinder doesn't have the Exhaust Bridge....so the Piston for that Cylinder shouldn't have the holes drilled down the center.....if so....you've got the wrong piston.
:(
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OH YES, any time you use a good quality race gas, instead of the governments pocket filling ethanol crap pump gas, it makes me happy.
Do the gas companys care if that junk pump gas destroys your beloved 2 stroke engine, NO!, does the government, NO!, just another thing to rob the American public & make the rich even richer.
Neil
Well said Neil. The last piston was only ran on, supposedly 91 non-ethanol mixed 50/50 with VP-110. But i'm starting to not trust the gas station, I was getting the 91 from. I have access to Sunoco Supreme (112).
Neil, you mentioned in an old post years ago, that you didn't like the Sunoco race fuel. Why was that?
Your Cylinder doesn't have the Exhaust Bridge....so the Piston for that Cylinder shouldn't have the holes drilled down the center.....if so....you've got the wrong piston.
:(
I thought that was odd myself. I wish now I would have asked Eddie about it. Those holes won't effect anything. I mic'd the piston, checked the UCCR. I don't know what that piston would be used for.
Does anyone make a big bore exhaust bridge cylinder?
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i thought the old Prox cylinders without a powervalve had a bridge along with triple ports
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The old big bore Wiseco & Wossnor pistons, will have the holes down the middle to attempt to keep the exhaust bridge cool, but the new machined ESR pistons, will have three sets of hole indentions so you can drill out those that you need.
The ESR cylinders, have the big main oval exhaust port & the two aux ports, so you need to drill out the sets of holes on each side of the piston to cool the small piece of bridge in between.
Sounds like you have the old Wiseco/Pro-x piston used on cylinders with bridged main exhaust port.
Everybody that has a Pro-x or ESR cylinders, what ever the bore size, needs to be using the new pistons ESR offeres that the machining on the sides are different to stop the port linking.
Neil
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Everybody that has a Pro-x or ESR cylinders, what ever the bore size, needs to be using the new pistons ESR offeres that the machining on the sides are different to stop the port linking.
Neil
I set JON's cylinder up for a +4 stroke crank and the port linking on the old piston style is really bad, JON got the piston for free so I am sure he will use it but the next piston he should upgrade if they make a 78.5mm
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Does anyone make a big bore exhaust bridge cylinder?
Yes! Pro-X (CT Racing) :)
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Ok, I spoke with Eddie again. He said the holes are there, for some guys that want to drill them through. He also said, it can help with lubricating, but not a deal breaker. If you think you should have drilled
them out, because your piston heated up and seized, he said you have other issues. Some batches come to him with all three rows, some with only the center.
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Holes ? Or Dimples ?
If you just have Dimples then you're OK.....I was Afraid you had HOLES down the middle and no exhaust bridge to cool them with.....causing fuel to pass through the holes into your Exhaust pipe (very small amount...but still fuel that should be going through the transfers and up to the Combustion Chamber.
:)
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Just dipples! Spot holes for drilling, if wanted.
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This picture brings joy to my heart! After a nice little ride around. :onthego: :eagerness:
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null_zps7cd95e46.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/null_zps7cd95e46.jpg.html)
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/G%20Pics/niceass5.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/G%20Pics/niceass5.jpg.html)
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Yea. Knock on wood and fingers crossed! And did I mention, this things pulls your arms out of the sockets! Between the cooler temps and race fuel,
she really rocks now. :ride::onthego:
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Great to hear!!!
So what Needle are you using ? Clip position ?
:)
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Great to hear!!!
So what Needle are you using ? Clip position ?
:)
I was pretty satisfied, with they way she was running, using a DGH. But the clip was at the lowest groove. I messed with the main, going richier, came back to a 185, seemed good.
So a tried a DEJ, I never could find the sweet spot, moving up the clip. I went back to the DGH, plug looks great, bike runs great. Pop Pop is HAPPY! :onthego:
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I was pretty satisfied, with they way she was running, using a DGH. But the clip was at the lowest groove. I messed with the main, going richier, came back to a 185, seemed good.
So a tried a DEJ, I never could find the sweet spot, moving up the clip. I went back to the DGH, plug looks great, bike runs great. Pop Pop is HAPPY! :onthego:
Anymore issues?
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I had this same problem with a 310 kit but it was their pro-x cylinder. Turned out to be be a ignition problem. The pos builder didn't hook up a couple wires right. Caused me hell.
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The builder didn't hook up a couple wires right. Caused me hell.
Time to switch to liberty builders company. You will be able to run 100% of your motor.
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I had led rebuild my 330 esr motor stock stroke cut the head for 50/50 fuel and run 91/110 mix 32/1. It stays cool til I got on loose sand and it would fo from 180 to over 200 fast. In my atc. I read my temp off tge top front line on the head. I fot new radiators that are over sized to try plus I went with some advise and ran big gearing which I think works it to hard at joy riding speeds. Plus I run all 3 6 ply tires. Im switching tires to all 3 cheetahs and gearing back to something like 14/38. Only way it would stay cool was to ride a physically hard as I could.