TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: patman13mia on May 22, 2014, 08:23:47 PM
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so tony was so cool enough to help me out and send me a cylinder so i can get to riding while i wait on my esr cylinder from neil at cleigh racing. nice lookin cylinder i must say. check out the pic down below. does anybody know how to take these little inserts out. one side has them and the other doesnt. i dont want to damage them cause they are not mine.
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they dont appear to be totally corroded in there but if they were i normally just crush them in half with pliers and pull em out and replace. since they probly arent corroded i just use a small punch and tap em out from the top side. it might make a couple small burrs but then just clean up any burrs with a small file and your good as new. or you could dump a bunch of heat to the cylinder ears but i dont recomend doing that although im sure someone will suggest it. they crush real easy so i wouldnt grab em with pliers around the outside. clean em up with sandpaper and use antiseize or somethin. make sure they go all the way in the pocket or it could hang up the cylinder when you put it back on
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yea ive been tryna beat em from the top with a punch but they arent budging. i may crush em up and just paypal tony the money for em. theres only 2. idk if he seen that before. thanks for the help dude
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sometimes a couple taps with a punch will get em out if you go around the outside edge in a few different spots. if that dont work then bend em in half and pull em i guess ? unless someone knows a different way.
there is something you might try. if you have a socket nearly the same ID then put it in there and you could probly grab em with pliers but im sure it will leave teeth marks so youll have to file em down
for sure heat would do the trick but i dont like that idea but its your call
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thanks for all the tips. i just got em out. took the vise grips to them. they needed to be spun and broke loose. then hammered em out with punch
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Those are the alignment barrels, all cylinder use them. You really should have some new ones on there. Sorry I was not thinking about that problem.
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i dont think i need them though do i? i took them out. here is a pic of the cylinder with the .020 gasket. will post the rest in a min
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here is the .040 gasket
looks like im gona need all 3?? it should pretty much be flush with the top of the cylinder correct??
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Looks like you need the 3/16 spacer plate with 2 .020" gaskets. :lol: Its real hard to build a motor from 200 miles away.
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here is all 3 gaskets. will this be good enough?
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well i still have to install the head gasket to which is pretty thick. would that also make a difference?
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No Pat, you need the 3/16 spacer plate. I have a long rod piston but I think it would be worse. Or maybe not. I can send a spacer and this other piston to see where the piston comes flush with the top of the cylinder at TDC. And the alignment barrels keep your bore centered on the motor
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here it is all three gaskets and also head gasket. i dont see that this would be a problem??
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ok well if you have any more of those dowel pins then can send those. i could look around here at a motorsports spot n see if they have any. idk though. nobody does two strokes here.
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Order the alignment barrels online from a Honda dealer. You are going to need a spacer period.
Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2
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rockymountain has them dowels. $1.24 each + $8 shipp. about 3days to your house
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nice call!! will be orderin those!! thanks for all your help guys
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nice call!! will be orderin those!! thanks for all your help guys
I have the dowels, spacers and anything else he needs. The head protrudes .030" down inside the head gasket. This would crash big time. I can send the 3mm and 5mm spacer with dowels tomorrow.
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jeeze tony your the man!! your like the coc but with garanteed products!! lol. seems like ya got tons of parts!! pm me the shipping cost and whatever else you need. cant thank you enough
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jeeze tony your the man!! your like the coc but with garanteed products!! lol. seems like ya got tons of parts!!
He has parts to sell, I have parts to ride. The difference is I ride and he does not. He makes money on you guys and I just try to help my brethren enjoy their toys. Making money does not mean anything to me!
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He has parts to sell, I have parts to ride. The difference is I ride and he does not. He makes money on you guys and I just try to help my brethren enjoy their toys. Making money does not mean anything to me!
hell yea!!! your a damn good man!! cant wait to meet and ride with ya
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He has parts to sell, I have parts to ride. The difference is I ride and he does not. He makes money on you guys and I just try to help my brethren enjoy their toys. Making money does not mean anything to me!
I can attest to that last statement. I bought 4 items from him and it the bill came in $75 dollars short of what it should of been. Gotta love the brethren that can help like this.. Thanks for all the help you've given me and everyone else on this forum Tony.
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so tony was so cool enough to help me out and send me a cylinder so i can get to riding while i wait on my esr cylinder from neil at cleigh racing. nice lookin cylinder i must say. check out the pic down below. does anybody know how to take these little inserts out. one side has them and the other doesnt. i dont want to damage them cause they are not mine.
Insert something round and solid like a bit or transfer punch that will fit snugly inside the dowel into the dowel. Grip the dowel with a good pair of pliers, rotate the dowel back and forth while pulling. The snug fitting rod on the inside of the dowel will keep it from collapsing and distorting. It usually takes me about 30 seconds to remove them without damaging them . Sometimes a little penetrating oil used on the dowel will also make it come out a little easier.
DO NOT USE HEAT. It will weaken the strength of the aluminum ears on the cylinders.
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I'm sittin here looking at the difference in long rod verses short rod pistons. The pin height is 3/16 of and inch higher on the long rod piston. So this piston will drop the top by 3/16. Instead you may want to use the 3/16 spacer plate cause the piston is an 87-89 design. The 86 piston matches the FTZ cylinder better on the intake side. I will send spacers and this piston. Just set what you don't use aside and I will get them from you later.
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ok that sounds good. now what size gaskets should i use with the spacer? .020 i would imagine? ill need two. i may have one here in the gasket set i got. ill have to check. will keep all the unused parts in the box ya sent me and can drop em off to ya when i come down that way
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ok that sounds good. now what size gaskets should i use with the spacer? .020 i would imagine? ill need two.
There is another .020" gasket between the 3mm and 5mm spacer I am sending. The dowels are inside the piston box. You won't get it till Tuesday
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ok thanks tony. soon as i get it ill set it up and take pics
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ok thanks tony. soon as i get it ill set it up and take pics
Once you get the deck height set you run the piston down to BDC and see if the top of the piston is at the bottom of the ports.
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yepp sure will.
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In regards to the dowl removal. I sprayed some penetrating oil in there and lightly tapped them down and out with a deepwell socket. I dont remember the size but it worked sweet.
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heres a pic of the cylinder sitting in the frame. just wanted to make sure everything lined up. also just wana stare at the quad so close to finished. cant wait to ride man its killing me!!
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Now that see your motor it reminded me you will have to back the case studs out 3/16" for the spacer plate. I did not send longer studs. I was not sure if you could just use the long rod piston to get the deck height corrected. Do you have your old piston? You could check too see if the pin heights are the same. The cylinder is a 86 model. As Jerry pointed out in another thread.
Using the 1986 piston will will require a spacer plate if you use the long rod. I would not use the 1987 to 1989 piston with the intake port shape you have.
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ok i can do that before i torque them down on final go around. when i get home later i can look at the pistons and the pin hieghts. will post pics of them .
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alright here is some pics of the pistons.
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I believe to piston with the window cut out is a 87-89 that have a long rod. The next piston arriving on Tuesday has the window in it and can be used with the 86 cylinder. It will not preform as well as the 86 piston but it does not involve removing studs and using the spacer. Since this is just a short term loan why don't you just use the 87-89 piston and no need the the longer studs. Both pistons have holes where they lube the bridge of the 87-89 cylinder. But this 86 cylinder does not have the bridge. I guess if I saw your piston before we started this I would have known you had a long rod.
What size is that piston Pat? If you want to check out the deck height just put it on and see (if its small enough to fit in the bore)
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well i didnt think i had a long rod. isnt 86-87 the same height for rods? and 88-89 are the same? mayne im confused on how that works. also the cylinder in the picture is one bore size bigger so it wont work. the piston that your sending is the same as the one in my picture? is the piston gap gona be ok? or set up to the cylinder correctly?
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well i didnt think i had a long rod. isnt 86-87 the same height for rods? and 88-89 are the same?
Only 86 has the short rod. 87 -89 used the long rod. Your frame is a 86 but the motor is 87-89. The piston I am sending is the same size as the 86 I originally sent you but it is the 87-89 pin height. You can tell the year by the window cut out on the intake side. The 86 does not have a window. It has a different shape on the bottom skirt (half moon)
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ok gotcha. so i have either two options right? i can run the piston you are sending me and run no spacer but performance will be lower. or i can run the piston i have now with the spacer and dowel pims on the cylinder and also longer studs. that will give me the best performance of the two??
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Can't say the performance would be lower. I have heard that sometimes swapping the years actually works better. Don't remember what years I was working with at the time but the motor was purring like a kitten. Using multiple gaskets and swapping out studs is not the way to go for a temporary use. Regardless of the performance you should just use the correct piston for the rod to get you by. Swapping studs is not as easy as you would think. I have seen many cases ruined and studs stripped when working with these old motors.
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An "86" piston will usually produce more power than the "87-89" piston but the life of the 86 is much shorter. The "86" piston is the same as the early CR 250 pistons.
Honda went to the long skirt and long rod in 1987 to increase the life of the piston. The 85-86 ATC 250R and the 86 TRX 250R used the piston from the earlier CR 250s.
Most motocross guys that bought CR250s expected to replace the piston every 10 hrs or less while many of the new guys that bought ATCs and TRXs were new to the world of motorsports. They expected their engine to make as much power as the CRs because they also had a 250 Honda engine. They also expected for the engines to last for a hundred years regardless how often they cleaned their air filter or what type of crap they dumped into the fuel tank.
Honda was receiving a lot of complaints from the new owners of things that had more than 2 wheels so they changed the piston and connecting rod design with the intentions of increasing longevity and not power. Honda also designed a new head that would run 6-month-old 87 octane fuel. The 87 and later TRX 250R engines had more power in stock form than the 85-86 stock engines.but it did not come from the long rod and full length skirt, it came from improvements in the port design. If you put an 86 piston and spacer plate in a 87 to 89 stock engine, it will produce more power. It is because of the absence of most of the intake skirt on the 86 piston and allows the intake to breath a little better.
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ok so ill just run the piston that your sending me then correct?
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ok so ill just run the piston that your sending me then correct?
Yes, the piston that is set up for the long rod. You should be able to use the stock size base gasket if you are going to run race gas. The reason I sent everything was to get it as close as we can in a hurry. You should be able start it by Wednesday.
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yepp always run race gas. and so cool of you to loan me the cylinder. youll get everything back you lent me. im hoping to come down to the dunes the weeknd of 6-8 of june. hope we can meet up with oj and whoever else wants to ride. ill post a thread a week before to build up a group and get some numbers
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Soon as the exhaust port is polished out & the bore man sees it, guess what :encouragement: :ride::ride:.
Neil
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hell yea neil you made my week!! thanks a ton!!
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hey tony i got the piston in today and installed it onto the crankshaft. thats about all i can do im about to go to dinner with my wife. i made her help me bleed the brakes so ill take her out lol. i took a pic of the 3mm spacer and the 2 .020 gaskets. now im a couple mm away from flush as you can see
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pic
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should i use the other piston with this setup? that would probably bring me flush?? idk just asking here
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should i use the other piston with this setup? that would probably bring me flush?? idk just asking here
You were just supposed to swap pistons, no spacer. The spacer was for the first piston. When you start adding spacers there is no point of reference. Use the 2nd piston with no spacer. The piston should be flush with the top or recessed slightly. This second piston matches your old style that was working with your crank.
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ahh gotcha.. i just confused myself on all of that. i got it now. heres a pic
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should i use yamabond on any of these gaskets? i would imagine the head gasket would need it. then let dry 24 hours??
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Nothing on the head gasket. It seals with the black stuff that it is made with. You can only use once and then discard. It is a copy of the head gaskets Honda used in all the gasket kits sold until they were discontinued. Once torqued down it cannot be reused.
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should i use yamabond on any of these gaskets? i would imagine the head gasket would need it. then let dry 24 hours??
Its common to use gasket sealer if you are using spacer plates. But you should just have the .020" base gasket on there. I would be more concerned with making sure you lube the wrist pin bearing with whichever oil you are using and get the circlips in correctly. Mark with a felt tip pen where your ring gaps go on the piston and assemble with a shot of wd-40.
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Ok got everything together. Hoses ran from the radiator. Got the pipe on. Still some small things i gota do before i can fire it up.ill post some pics tomorrow.
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Well i got everything installed and tried to start her up. Nothing. Doesnt seem like im getting any spark. Thing is all the components were working before the rebuild. Gona give it a try tomorrow. Anybody have any suggestions? One thing i noticed was the spark plug cap pulled off the line that goes into it. I noticed the wires were all messed up so i clipped a lil bit off the end. Now this wa waaay after i ran into the non start. Just something i was tryna mess with to get it to turn over.
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Make sure every piece of the ignition is making good contact, like if you painted the cases, clean the paint off the little tabs where the stator mounts so it will be good metal to metal contact. Do the same for the coil, because those contact points could be rusted from sitting.
Normally 9 out of 10 times on the stock OEM TRX ignition system, it is the connectors in the wiring harness not making good contact. You look at them & they look fine, but its hard to see the how dirty they are because they look clean. Might can take a pair of needle nose & press on them a bit to tighten them up.
Mounting points for the engine need to be clean as well, metal to metal.
Neil
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thanks for the help neil.. now are you talkin inside the stator cover where the stator mounts are? i didnt paint inside there any. also i think its gota be a connection somewhere but man oh man there is so much shit connected to the wire harness. im gona have to take it all apart and cut the tape on it and get ride of all the old stuff that used to be connected such as tail lights and headlights and start over with that stuff. ill have to post some pics to see if some of yall can help me out
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You can check your stator with an ohm meter. If it checks good then 99 percent of the time you get spark.
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now where at on the stator am i putting the pin? and also does the other pin go to bear metal? cant be paint covered? i think my grounding wire may be an issue as i cant find a spot to put it and the whole fram is powdercoated. even some powder into the threads
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also ive heard of the stator sounds like it has marbles in it then its bad. i think mine does, but it always has and its always worked no issues. also is there a way to see if im gettin spark at the spark plug? i think the method is with a screwdriver or even with the spark plug in the boot and connected to metal while being kicked over. has anybody else done this before??
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Yes you can kick it over in the boot. I think the plug has to be touching ground for that to work?
Best to have someone watch it for you so you can kick it over good. Can see the spark best in dark conditions
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its alive my friends!! cleaned up all the electronics and bam!! second kick
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its alive my friends!! cleaned up all the electronics and bam!! second kick
Bet that made you feel pretty relieved!!!!:quad:
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it sure did tony. shitty part of it all though is this lsr swinger i bought off somebody has a slight bend in it so the ride is a lil bumpy. ima take into work and straighten it out on the press. hope it works
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it sure did tony. shitty part of it all though is this lsr swinger i bought off somebody has a slight bend in it so the ride is a lil bumpy. ima take into work and straighten it out on the press. hope it works
:lol: it never ends I tell ya !!!
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yea i know man sucks. and idk why i said swinger.. i meant the axle.
on a good note after the bike kicked over i let it run for 10 mins then shut her down. cooled for about 30 then kicked her over again. then cooled for about 45 mins. then i kicked it again and gave some small blips of the throttle. idled for about 5-10 mins. then i putted down the street in 1st -2nd gear. did that twice on a 3/4 mile road. on the way back to the house i got about half throttle in 3rd-4th gear. that cylinder has some power. more torque than my stock cylinder with mid range porting. i need to get a temp gauge though cause it feels pretty hot. but i dont think its scary hot. i have a fluidye radiator with engine ice in there and a cooler thing on my rad line. should be good enough i would think
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Be careful with letting idle for to long. That bad boy needs air "let it eat". :character0029:
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well i didnt get to ride to much today cause the bike just wouldnt run right at all. when i first started riding the jetting was good with a 50 pilot and 172 main in the 38 a/s carb. after like 1 run it wouldnt idle and kept fouling plugs. i needed a smaller pilot jet but just didnt have it. i even tried multiple needles but nada. ofcourse i i have tons of jets and needles but the smaller pilot jet i need i just didnt have. will buy one on tuesday. i also kept fouling plugs. i mean covered in oil. would the pilot being that rich foul plugs??
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. i also kept fouling plugs. i mean covered in oil. would the pilot being that rich foul plugs??
When you pull the pilot jet make to see if there is anything in the jet plugging it up. I once had a little piece of rubber come off the fuel line and it was stuck in the pilot jet causing an abnormal amount of smoke. When the carb sits around open to the atmosphere even bugs crawl in. A 50 sounds right but there might be a different explanation.
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yea i looked in there a couple times. i just need to be one size smaller. the bike ran strong once i got into 3rd gear and above. or more than a quarter throttle. i also tried other needles. i was running ddj in there. its wierd cause when i was doing heat cycles the bike was running awesome down low. i think today was much hotter and also the bike was running much longer than before. i think those two variables may knock me down a jet size?? idk thats all i can think of
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I have only run a DGH here in Oregon.
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i tried that one and its just to fat.
hey tony me and about 10 other friends will be making our way down to oregon to camp and ride the 20-22. hope we can meet up and get some other guys to make it down that weeknd also. we can even start a thread for it
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hey tony me and about 10 other friends will be making our way down to oregon to camp and ride the 20-22. hope we can meet up and get some other guys to make it down that weeknd also. we can even start a thread for it
Sounds like a plan. Need to hit OJ up too see where he is at. Did you get anywhere on the jetting today?
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yepp oj and also pnw rider guy!! he wanted to go to. and anybody else from oregon. we will bbqin down there at the camp site so anybody is welcome!!
and i wasnt gona but i think i will now that ya talked me into it. the ppl down the street arent liking me to much any more. but what the hell its 1300 on a sat!! they can �� me!! lol
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just ran it down the road with cel needle in it. ran alot better but need to plug chop that way im not running it to lean ya know
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also by the sounds of it my cylinder should be here before the dune trip. neil said it just needs bored and then im ready to ride!! man i cant wait!! ready to see what the difference in power is from stock to 350
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ready to see what the difference in power is from stock to 350
LOL, You will be wondering why you did not do it 10 years ago. The bottom end torque is amazing.
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hell yea!! ill just keep moving up in dispacement as i go!! get some big boys like you got
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check out the base gasket... i would say this wont hold a seal lol.
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check out the base gasket... i would say this wont hold a seal lol.
Better put some sealer on there this time.
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pat i hope you dont mind some constructive critisizem. them wiseco cranks and rods have a high failure rate. a piston with the forward facing side cutouts often times create a undesirable shortcut from the exh to crankcase. even with just a rearward facing cutout i still dont think its a good thing because it leaves a large gap between piston and cylinder wall at bdc. a full circle piston would be best but alot of times they dont make that style for a particular engine so were are forced to use alternatives with less than ideal designs
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what piston fo you use when you build your 250r's??
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i would be more concearned about that rod. if the crank is a wiseco i would have concearns about that also. when they break its a train wreck. i hope your one of the few that dont have problems
im not familiar with all the different 250r styles of pistons so i cant answer your question directly. maybe someone else around here can ? to me that looks like a old version of a wiseco. why they ever designed them like that is a mystery to me. years ago the cr500 piston looked the same and probly many other pistons. a light bulb must of went off and they realized the errors and corrected it partially with the cutout only on the back half. still i think its best to not have any side cutouts but often times you dont have a choice depending on what engine your dealing with.
these arent necesarrily for your engine but i think something like one of these designs would be a better choice if you have the option.
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