TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: aberegg05 on June 16, 2014, 09:44:59 PM
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Who has sussesfully hooked up and currently or has ran a fan on their R? If so educate me on how doing so and whats involved.
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I haven't done but I've been looking into it (like the hole in the fence at the nude beach). https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/productlist/0164/products/fans/motorcycle-atv/fans-motorcycleatv.aspx The top 5.6" one might fit in the Laeger. On a stock frame I would try one off a 450r or z400. Summit racing has a lot to choose from also.
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This is a good question and topic. Especially for the XC guys. I'd be very interested in this. I know Troy had one on Elsinore
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Troy had his set up as a pusher. I measured the one on the daughters kfx/z 400 and it won't fit on the Laeger.
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could you use the lighting circuit to power it?
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I ride xc and I heat up quick. Hopefully somone has an answer
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amps x volts = watts The one I linked to needs 40-45 watts. This one looks interesting also https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/product/0164/products/fans/motorcycle-atv/30103021/va37-a101-46s-5-2-p-12v-sum.aspx I'm guessing a battery would be required. Hopefully someone who has done it can chime in.
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If I heard correct we would need a dc fan and a lithium battery.
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could you use the lighting circuit to power it?
04/05 450r's have a fan without a battery. I wonder if the R's stator could power it? Often the fan is needed most when the rpms are down.
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(waiting patiently...)
I'd love to hear this one too. I've got an XC race this weekend down here in Texas. Race is at 4pm and high is to be 96.
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Some info here. http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?442608-spal-fan-on-a-trx
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Who has sussesfully hooked up and currently or has ran a fan on their R? If so educate me on how doing so and whats involved.
A stock TRX 250 R generates about 75 watts at high RPM or about 5 to 6 amps. 75 watts is just enough to run the stock lights. A fan that is large enough to keep the engine cool at low vehicle speeds (2nd gear riding) will take at least 4 amps. At very low vehicle speeds (idling and 1st gear) you will need a fan that pulls 6 to 10 amps. The fans on the four strokes ATVs usually pull around 10amps and UTV pull up to about 15amps. The typical fan on automobiles pull around 30 amps each.
You will not get 5 to 6 amps at low RPM on the stock stator but could probably get 5 to 6 amps with a 200 watt upgraded lighting coils. You will need to install a full-wave rectifier and voltage regulator. A small battery would be a plus and help during short times of idling when the stator output is low.
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Run a 200 watt stator, floating ground to single phase reg/rect and battery setup should be able to push a fan that size just fine. It may drain the battery if you're just putting around with that and lights on.
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http://sicassracing.com/store/products/fans/trail_tech_ktm_fan_kit http://sicassracing.com/store/products/electrical_accessories
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Where can I get a rectifier and what type of battery do I need. Of course I want as small as possible.
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Where can I get a rectifier and what type of battery do I need. Of course I want as small as possible.
rk88r gave a link that has voltage regulator and rectifier in one package. You will need a 12 volt battery. The battery size depends upon how long you are going to idle around with the fan and lights running.
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I used Ricky Stators single phase rect/reg, I think he'll float the ground on the stator for you if you buy one from him. Pretty simple though. I use a like 3"x3"x5" 12v mounted under the tank. Not positive on dimensions but I can measure it later.
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http://www.rickystator.com/catalog/single-phase-rectifierregulator-p-88.html
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Save yourself time and headache and buy an Afco radiator! It will solve any Heating issues out there. I put one on my 330 with engine ice and it instantly dropped my temps 30-40 degrees. I ride xc in the thick woods and usually say around 150* and never break 175* no matter the outside temp.
. If I were going to run a fan I definany would not try to run it off the stator and if you have cr ignition like me then that's not an option anyways. I would get a good 12v battery and make some sort of mount to set the battery on the frame down by steering stem. I think it would be most stable there and would have easy access for recharging.
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I'm thinking a 200W stator will actually be WORSE.
I could go on a whole long-winded post on how electricity is generated, coils of wire, electric fields, shunt regulators, and the differences between 20V and 10amps, or 10V and 20amps. (same overal power, different delivery)
But the real heart of the matter is that high-output stators suffer low voltage at low RPMs. With a stock stator the lights may dim a little bit at idle, you might get 10V instead of 12V. With a high-output stator you're probably only producing about 4V at idle, the lights will be almost non-existent, and then brighten as you rev the engine.
If you're worried about power production at low RPMs, a high-output stator is NOT the answer, it will actually be worse.
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Would the high output stator charge more at higher rpms though?
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Would the high output stator charge more at higher rpms though?
Yes...........and if the RPMs are high you probably do not need a fan because your speed will be high enough to push enough air through the radiator to keep the engine cool.
Like I have said before: if you are having heating problems due to low vehicle speeds you probably should be riding a four stroke and not a 250 R based bike.
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Yes...........and if the RPMs are high you probably do not need a fan because your speed will be high enough to push enough air through the radiator to keep the engine cool.
Like I have said before: if you are having heating problems due to low vehicle speeds you probably should be riding a four stroke and not a 250 R based bike.
Really??? I thought this was a trx250r forum. Ill never sell my R for a boring 4 poke. People don't realize the environment I ride in isn't the dunes I can't run 60mph the whole time and my stock rad isn't up to the task of cooling my 330 stroker. I was just trying to find a cheaper alternative to keep my engine cooler in the tight trails than buying a $500 radiator. Thanks matt
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I am not sure spending $500.00 on a radiator will fix the problem if your speeds are real low for more than a few minutes at a time. Adding more capacity to the cooling system will help keep the temps lower if you are only spending a minute or so at crawling speeds and then be able to ride at higher speeds for a few minutes to cool everything down and get ready for the next low speed section.
We have added tanks into the cooling system that hold about a gallon of additional coolant to help bridge the time between slow and fast sections.
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I'm really leaning towards using a fan that runs off a battery. If I can find a setup that will last for about 10hrs or more then recharge, that would be perfect. The fan only needs to run periodically not constantly.
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I'm really leaning towards using a fan that runs off a battery. If I can find a setup that will last for about 10hrs or more then recharge, that would be perfect. The fan only needs to run periodically not constantly.
It will take a battery much larger than what the 450s have to run a fan for very long without hurting the battery. Small deep cycle batteries will be expensive.
Cheap batteries like most jet skis and small street bikes have are around 20 amp-hours. The cost on these batteries are in the $40 to $100 range. These batteries are about 10 lbs and theoretically would run a 4 amp fan (about 50 watts) for 5 hours. In real life you would be lucky if it would run the fan for 2 hours and would probably be junk after running the battery down and recharging it 5 times or so.
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Also interested in a fan. Afco radiator doesn't do the job. It's just not big enough. I've got a JRD that's about double the capacity that I'm going to try, then it's fan time!
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I'm thinking a 200W stator will actually be WORSE.
I could go on a whole long-winded post on how electricity is generated,
just for the record ..I've learned a lot from some of these "long-winded" posts...
I miss your full page reports on electrical issues, ALLWAYS learned something..
please don't be afraid to be long winded I know I read every word!!
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Also interested in a fan. Afco radiator doesn't do the job. It's just not big enough. I've got a JRD that's about double the capacity that I'm going to try, then it's fan time!
Have you personally ran an Afco or just guessing??? I have never heard of a single person that has used one and didn't have significant gains! I couldn't ride my built 330 for more then 15-20 min out in the open without having to shut her down because I was hitting 200-210 and if I was in the woods the ride time was cut in half. It was very frustrating I took my front bumper off moved my shock ressies and so on. Finally I broke down and spent the $350 and have never had a single overheating issue since then. Now with the same motor it never gets above 175.
I don't know how the jrd compares to a Afco but afcos are at the higher end I the spectrum and If it doesn't fix your problem then I highly doubt a little fan will solve your issues! Maybe you have another issue going on somewhere? Possibly partily clogged water jacket or somthing?
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I just took my afco off and sold it. It's tiny. I have a Pro Series double pass on my hybrid that is around double the capacity of the afco, and the JRD is about the same as the pro series. The afco works great I'm sure on small motors just not nearly enough for my setup/what I do with it.
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Really??? I thought this was a trx250r forum. Ill never sell my R for a boring 4 poke. People don't realize the environment I ride in isn't the dunes I can't run 60mph the whole time and my stock rad isn't up to the task of cooling my 330 stroker. I was just trying to find a cheaper alternative to keep my engine cooler in the tight trails than buying a $500 radiator. Thanks matt
How long are you running at low rpms for before you reach the temperature you're having problems with, and what is that temperature, and if there are any, what problems?
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what coolant are you using. many guys switched to engine ice or something comparable and it basically eliminated their overheating issues.
john
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I'm afraid there is no cheap solution to your problem. Anytime you go up to a bigger bore cylinder, you increase the heat rejection requirement of your engine. When you do that, you have to then match that heat rejection by your cooling system. Basically the only two ways to raise that rejection capacity of your cooling system is to either increase the area of your heat exchanger(radiator) or increase the airflow. Increasing the area of the radiator means buying an expensive, larger radiator. And to increase the air flow, you either need to run a fan or ride faster. lol. Of course, I understand that you are not able to ride faster due to the trails that you ride. So what is happening is that your cooling system is not meeting the heat rejection required by the engine at a temp in value that is in an acceptable range while you are riding relatively slow. Of course, while you are riding slow, your airflow through the radiator is very little. You can try a larger radiator, but it is difficult to say with 100% certainty that it will be enough. The fan is probably the better choice for your application, but will not be super easy or cheap to do. Both of your options are going to be pretty expensive.
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How long are you running at low rpms for before you reach the temperature you're having problems with, and what is that temperature, and if there are any, what problems?
No problems with engine. When the trails get tight for more than 10 mins she's 220+
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what coolant are you using. many guys switched to engine ice or something comparable and it basically eliminated their overheating issues.
john
I'm running hyper lube (I think that's what its called) and distilled water
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I'm afraid there is no cheap solution to your problem. Anytime you go up to a bigger bore cylinder, you increase the heat rejection requirement of your engine. When you do that, you have to then match that heat rejection by your cooling system. Basically the only two ways to raise that rejection capacity of your cooling system is to either increase the area of your heat exchanger(radiator) or increase the airflow. Increasing the area of the radiator means buying an expensive, larger radiator. And to increase the air flow, you either need to run a fan or ride faster. lol. Of course, I understand that you are not able to ride faster due to the trails that you ride. So what is happening is that your cooling system is not meeting the heat rejection required by the engine at a temp in value that is in an acceptable range while you are riding relatively slow. Of course, while you are riding slow, your airflow through the radiator is very little. You can try a larger radiator, but it is difficult to say with 100% certainty that it will be enough. The fan is probably the better choice for your application, but will not be super easy or cheap to do. Both of your options are going to be pretty expensive.
Your right on that. I've looked up both options. A radiator may even be cheaper.
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Your right on that. I've looked up both options. A radiator may even be cheaper.
Yes, I believe so as well. You can get a new radiator from AFco for $369, with is a dual pass. You can get a PWR radiator from ESR for $399, which are a single pass. Both options are more than likely cheaper than a fan, unfortunately. With all these big bores out these days, a fan would be a big plus for alot of us. But I run a CR 250 ignition myself, and there is really no good option at all to even run a fan with one of those.
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I think a monster radiator will be the cheapest and most reliable option. Not sure where we would ever find the room to mount a battery on these things. That just sounds like a hassle
All I need is for a fan to run for 2 hours without stopping, enough to cover the time elapsed in an XC race
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What if you fabbed your rear grab bar to somthin like a "six pack rack" to hold a battery?? or down on the frame in front I think would be the only options. If you went the radiator route I would go with a dual pass such as the Afco over a single pass, also the bigger radiators not not hold more coolant but they have bigger surface area with more fins = more air flow!
If you have a scooped hood you could fab up a duct to force the air to the radiator. It may be minimal but every bit helps!
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Where can I get an afco radiator?
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Here is where I threw my battery, bike is all torn apart so could get a decent picture. Running DC system with cr250 ignition. Definitely not enough juice to power a fan with the cr but at least its an idea for location. Just have two separate pos/neg so I can charge it easier. If you have a HO stator already its like $150 max to do it.
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Dang won't let me upload pic from phone :(
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(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/797_2403_2017-04-18_8001.jpg)
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That's a good idea but I still don't think batteries and fans and all that crap will be reliable. The best way will be a bigger radiator
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That's a good idea but I still don't think batteries and fans and all that crap will be reliable. The best way will be a bigger radiator
I agree with you on that, but a larger radiator may only have a minimal effect if airflow is still very low. Now, how much that effect actually results in is hard to determine. With that said, I also would try a larger radiator before trying to get a fan to work. Yes, it might be a bit of a gamble and cost more if you had to buy both, but a larger radiator is easier to obtain and install. Even though it is nice to have a radiator that just drops in like an OEM fit, I personally would go with the dual pass afco. From my experience, dual pass heat exchangers work better, especially with space restrictions.
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Also Aberegg005, contrary to what you were told on the "other site", getting the coolant passages milled out some will NOT drop the coolant temp 20-25°F. This is just BS. The radiator barely accomplishes that, and some probably don't. All that would help with is if you had issues with seizures on the exhaust side of the cylinder, it would not drop the overall coolant temp by 25°F. If that were true then big bore manufacturers would do that already. The only time this has been an issue is with non pv cylinders that happen to have too much solid mass around the front of the exhaust and the temp around the exhaust getting a bit too hot. This option would do you no good if the engine's cooling system is overheating.
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I think I'm going to try the afco radiator first.
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Also Aberegg005, contrary to what you were told on the "other site", getting the coolant passages milled out some will NOT drop the coolant temp 20-25°F. This is just BS. The radiator barely accomplishes that, and some probably don't. All that would help with is if you had issues with seizures on the exhaust side of the cylinder, it would not drop the overall coolant temp by 25°F. If that were true then big bore manufacturers would do that already. The only time this has been an issue is with non pv cylinders that happen to have too much solid mass around the front of the exhaust and the temp around the exhaust getting a bit too hot. This option would do you no good if the engine's cooling system is overheating.
I wonder if that service is done in house just like the clutch covers? Lol. But i'd definitely agree with you on this one
I think I'm going to try the afco radiator first.
Got a link for this radiator? I'm also looking at the one from ESR
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I wonder if that service is done in house just like the clutch covers? Lol. But i'd definitely agree with you on this one
Got a link for this radiator? I'm also looking at the one from ESR
Bahahaha!!!! I bet they are!
Here you go sir. http://www.afcodynapro.com/store?search_api_views_fulltext=80260n (http://www.afcodynapro.com/store?search_api_views_fulltext=80260n)
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I have the cure to your overheating... Methenol!! haha
Also doubles as a mosquito killer. :ride:
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Kinda interesting topic. I never had a problem with Pro-X big bore cylinders getting above 150 at the dunes but the last couple CP Inc cylinders I have had including this 363 cc sphinx seem to run hotter running a stock radiator. Was at the dunes this past weekend and running the crap out of it got me 170-180 degrees which isn't bad but what's funny is on my jetting which is pretty close to spot but have a little dead spot (rich) in that 1/4 throttle range that gets worse as the motor runs hotter. I can leave the bike sit and take off throttle response in that area but as the motor heats up, that little spot in the rpm range must get richer or something. Seems like these cylinders should run cooler being all aluminum but maybe not?
I do still have the stock radiator and radiator cap from 1986 but its a real clean radiator without any fins messed up. Exhaust is a big bore, LED Large intake system which helped on power by the way so I'm wondering if these all aluminum including the sleeve run a little hotter than a steel sleeved motor.
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When fuel burns 20 to 30 %, of the heat is turned in to crankshaft power, 30 to 40% of the heat leaves in the exhaust and rest of the heat leaves HAS TO LEAVE THOUGH THE COOLING SYSTEM.
The stock 250Rs made about 32 to 34 hp @ the rear wheels on my dyno. A lot of 330s and larger big bore kits will easily make 55 plus HP. The percentage of waste heat going out the exhaust and into the cooling remains about the same on all engines.
A 55 hp engine has to get rid of approximately 1.7 times more heat into the cooling system (radiator) than a stock engine. If we build a 60 to 70 HP engine the radiator must get rid of 2.2 times as much heat as the stock radiator to maintain the same coolant temperatures we would see riding at the same speed, temperature and humidity as on a stock 250 R making 32 hp.
There are only two ways that I know of to make the cooling system get rid of more heat. Increase the volume of air per minute that passes THROUGH the stock radiator or increase the number of square inches of fins in the radiator. Always strive to add more frontal area to the radiator. Frontal area is much more efficient than increasing the thickness of the radiator. There is a point where adding thickness will not increase the cooling capacity of the radiator. This is because heat flow from hot to cold. On a radiator that has many rows the 1st row gets rid of most of the heat. The 2nd row has hotter air flowing over the same number of fins but does not get rid of as much heat as the 1st row. The last row of fins in a radiator will not transfer any heat if the temperature of the air flowing over the last row is equal to the temperature of the coolant inside of that row of fins.
The amount of heat put into the cooling system is influenced by the power the engine is producing. The brand of cylinder or type of material the cylinder and head is made of does not have much of an influence of how much heat needs to flow into the coolant from the cylinder and head.
There are some coolants that may be slightly more efficient in transferring heat from the engine into the coolant and then from the coolant to the radiator, but these expensive coolants are really just a band-air for an under-sized or inefficient cooling systems.
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Is the afco dual pass radiator more effective than another radiator of similar volume and frontal area?
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so it sounds like the best radiator to use would be the biggest single row radiator a person could find. So does anyone know how much larger than stock the PWR single row radiator ESR sells is?
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So which radiator cools better the afco or pwr?
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So which radiator cools better the afco or pwr?
I personally think that the Afco would due to it's dual pass design over the PWR. This is my expectation from my experience with heat exchanger design, but I haven't actually tested on to the other. If the companies know and would tell you the radiation capacity of each of the coolers, that would tell you which one cools better. It wouldn't hurt to call and find out. If they designed the cooler, they SHOULD have it's radiation capacity info or atleast the test data numbers where you could calculate it yourself.
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so it sounds like the best radiator to use would be the biggest single row radiator a person could find. So does anyone know how much larger than stock the PWR single row radiator ESR sells is?
YES!! YES!! YES!!
If you had a radiator that had 1 square foot of frontal area and was two rows thick and another radiator that was one row thick but had 2 square feet of frontal area, the 1 row thick radiator would remove a lot more heat.
This simple idea is being used in the refrigeration and heating industry in the high efficiency units. Using one row thick condenser and evaporator coils with huge frontal area has done more to increase the efficiency than just about all of the other changes made in compressor and control technology in the last 15 years.
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I personally think that the Afco would due to it's dual pass design over the PWR. This is my expectation from my experience with heat exchanger design, but I haven't actually tested on to the other. If the companies know and would tell you the radiation capacity of each of the coolers, that would tell you which one cools better. It wouldn't hurt to call and find out. If they designed the cooler, they SHOULD have it's radiation capacity info or atleast the test data numbers where you could calculate it yourself.
The radiation and convective heat transfer rates are specifications that are provided by any company who designs and builds heat ex-changers. I doubt that any of the Chinese companies that are building radiators for our industry or any of the USA companies that are buying Chinese core material and making radiators for our industry could provide these heat transfer specifications.
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YES!! YES!! YES!!
If you had a radiator that had 1 square foot of frontal area and was two rows thick and another radiator that was one row thick but had 2 square feet of frontal area, the 1 row thick radiator would remove a lot more heat.
This simple idea is being used in the refrigeration and heating industry in the high efficiency units. Using one row thick condenser and evaporator coils with huge frontal area has done more to increase the efficiency than just about all of the other changes made in compressor and control technology in the last 15 years.
^^^ I agree. This aligns with my experience as well.
The radiation and convective heat transfer rates are specifications that are provided by any company who designs and builds heat ex-changers. I doubt that any of the Chinese companies that are building radiators for our industry or any of the USA companies that are buying Chinese core material and making radiators for our industry could provide these heat transfer specifications.
Very true. I was speaking mainly for the PWR and Afco radiators, which have better reputations, but still can't gaurantee they would have this information to share.