TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: 96motorhead on August 18, 2014, 09:05:42 PM
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I've been looking at the esr and prox 350/370 cylinder kits. What kit do you guys think is best for duning and hill shooting at glamis. The other upgrades that I plan to go along with the bb cylinder would be a 39mm carb, paul turner high rev, K&N air filter and a +8 swing arm. Also how reliable are these kits? Do they overheat easily or have any problems? Thanks for the help in advance, i'm new to the bb motor builds so i'm trying to learn as much as I can. These upgrades are not set in stone either, it's just what i've compiled from research I've done so far.
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I have an esr350 engine builder kit i sent out to neil at c-leigh racing. Has all around porting and trx5 pipe w/ 38 as carb.. Its the fastest 250r bike I have ever rode but i now want a 370 or even bigger.. Only because my buddy has a banshee that still beats me in the straight aways.. If your not worried about being the fastest but still wanna haul ass... Id still go 370. But i think you need to do a lil more engine wise with the 370 like rod n stuff Am not to sure.. I have an oversized rad and also 110 fuel so im running as cool as possible.. Still runs hot to me but its a big bore.. Its producing alot more power than my stock cylinder so i would imagine thats expected.. Overall its a badass cylinder and tons of power everywhere!! The banshee doesn't wanna see me on the track thats for sure!! Hope that gives ya something to go off of
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I haven't had any issues with BB Pro-X's up in the Oregon dunes but haven't ran one of the ESR cast cylinders before.
ESR wants $1000-1100 for a 350-370 setup. For a couple hundred more, you're into Sphynx territory - which is what I would consider if I was in your shoes. Here is the link for the Dealer Price list for - CP Industries Sphynx, Puma, Saber Cylinders (http://trx250r.org/threads/3231-CP-Industries-RETAIL-prices-for-Sphynx-Puma-Sabertooth).
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I only paid 650$ for my 350cc cylinder.. I think thats why you see soooo many esr kits cause they are the cheapest and theres tons of ppl that like them.. But i do always see that hardly anybody ever hates on their pro-x cylinders. From what i heard much more expensive but also better quality. I think if you go esr and send it somewhere else you get the better deal. Just me though. Other guys know much more and have rode both and can tell ya
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I would say lean more towards to 370 if you're going to hill shoot, and be somewhat competitive but imo the biggest thing is having the motor set up and ported by someone that is known for building the style motor for your application...and+ 6 on the swinger it would probably be a little more dune friendly.. jmo
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ESR wants $1000-1100 for a 350-370 setup. For a couple hundred more, you're into Sphynx territory -Here is the link for the Dealer Price list for - CP Industries Sphynx, Puma, Saber Cylinders (http://trx250r.org/threads/3231-CP-Industries-RETAIL-prices-for-Sphynx-Puma-Sabertooth).
But oj that price at around 1243.02 for a unported sphynx is to have a simular kit as a esr 330 @699 or 350 at 799, 799 and 899 with trx9 port. The 1000 to 1100 esr kits that you were thinking of are the complete 4 mil stroker 344 @ 899 + 100 for trx9 or 363 at I would assume based on number of kits would be + 100 at 999 and 1099. So a set up 350 non stroker sphynx would be around 1699 vs a trx9 set up non stroker esr 350 cyl kit at 899. That is the compare the best that I can estimate 1699ish vs 899.
I think this is a better ballpark compare estimate but it could be off as well and I just put around 450 for port to sphynix to get the 1699ish and esr's trx9 at 100 to get the 899 so these numbers could change this up a little bit.
The prox is no better then the esr any more and 300ish more, that may be off... maybe its 200 more..
Also with esr you get your cases boared for free if you send in the bare set. That is another 90.00 to 100.00 added to the other options.
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But oj that price at around 1243.02 for a unported sphynx is to have a simular kit as a esr 330 @699 or 350 at 799, 799 and 899 with trx9 port. The 1000 to 1100 esr kits that you were thinking of are the complete 4 mil stroker 344 @ 899 + 100 for trx9 or 363 at I would assume based on number of kits would be + 100 at 999 and 1099. So a set up 350 non stroker sphynx would be around 1699 vs a trx9 set up esr 350 cyl kit at 899. That is the compare the best that I can estimate 1699ish vs 899. The prox is no better then the esr any more and 300ish more, that may be off... maybe its 200 more..
I think this is a better ballpark compare estimate but it could be off as well and I just put around 450 for port to sphynix to get the 1699ish and esr's trx9 at 100 to get the 899 so these numbers could change this up a little bit.
Ah yes I see it now - seemed a bit more expensive than the last time I looked. Good to know it's still priced well.
$799 - 350 Cylinder Kit (http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/350%20cylinder%20kit.htm)
$1049 - 370 Cylinder Kit (http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/370%20cylinder%20kit.htm)
$1099 - 370 Engine Kit 1 (http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/370%20engine%20kit%201.htm) - comes with stroker crank.
So like you say, a plated unported Sphynx is $400-$450 more than the unported ESR cylinder. But we can't really compare a $450 port job to the $100 ESR TRX9 port job. Either route, the ESR cylinder is cheaper.
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What do I have to do to the bike if I install the 370 kit? Will the stock trans hold up just fine? Also If I got the esr I was gonna pay another company to port it not esr. Has anybody had experience with the prox cylinders though? Thanks for the help guys.
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I like the 4 mil kit 344 base at 899 and they dont have it listed but based on 330 vs 350 kit being + 100 I would assume the 363 would be 999 base kit. That is a lot and smoking for 899 +100 trx9 and 999 + 100 trx9 imo. Now that the new 4mil hotrod crank has prooven itself I bet the 5 mil 370's will sell less then before with some choosing 363 350 4 mil now...
http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/330-76mm-stroker-kit-npv.htm
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An esr or prox 370/363 is the same as a 350/344 but with a 4mil crank correct? What is the power difference with the 330 76mm stroker and the 370?
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What do I have to do to the bike if I install the 370 kit? Will the stock trans hold up just fine? Also If I got the esr I was gonna pay another company to port it not esr. Has anybody had experience with the prox cylinders though? Thanks for the help guys.
Bore cases, setup cylinder for the +4 or +5 crank, some will say a 1-1/8" exhaust stinger, clutch & trans in good shape. I ran a 76mm x 76mm Pro-X 344 in the dunes for a few seasons with no issues. I have also ran smaller bore Pro-X's on a few R's without issue.
An esr or prox 370/363 is the same as a 350/344 but with a 4mil crank correct? What is the power difference with the 330 76mm stroker and the 370?
Yes - a 363/368 is a 78mm piston & 76/77mm crank. But you can achieve 344cc with a 76mm piston & 76mm crank OR 78mmm piston & 72mm crank. You can play around with our TRX250R.ORG Engine Displacement Calculator (http://trx250r.org/TRX250REngineDisplacementCalculator.html) to bore & stroke displacement.
I've never tested differences between the two sizes so I can't comment there.
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I just read this in that esr link that I put up above.
"ALL CYLINDER MACHINED HERE AT ESR ARE RENISHAW PROBE INSPECTED WE USE A MACRO PROGRAM TO MEASURE BORE FOR PISTON AND SLEEVE DIMENSIONS ALL AUTOMATED ON ARE CNC MACHINING CENTER OVER 900 THOUSAND INVESTED IN TOOLING FIXTURES AND MAKINO MACHINE "
I guess the probe etc must all be part of the new cnc mill upgrades and changes. When you talk about things being square and true nobody else has this tooling.
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Alright I think I learned something new today. Do the esr cylinders use re branded prox cylinders or what? I'm hearing the esr cylinders are just prox cylinders, esr calls it their cylinder because they port it. Is this correct? Once again thanks for all the help.
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Years ago they used prox but they have had thier own cyl for awile now. It is 100% thier own castings and has nothing to do with the prox. They are simular performance wise but the prox cost a lot more.
ESR has been making tweaks to perfect it and to give people what they want. With that probe setup, thier equipment, and what they are sending out there is no reason to look at let alone pay a dime more for or a new prox today imo. Enjoy the dealer direct type pricing vs the prox and spend that cash on something else for your R.
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While they have some similarities, they are different cylinders like [MENTION=70]etccb[/MENTION] said.
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The biggest complaint I hear about the esr stuff is the wiseco cranks. So from what you guys are telling me and from other information i've gathered a esr 370 cylinder with a hot rods stroker crank, running on 110 fuel and have it hand ported by a pro I would have a good strong running reliable motor?
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They do not use wiesco cranks they have hotrods or can rebuild oem. The hot rods are 4mil strokers so you will be looking at a 363 with one of those vs having a custom crank made to get a 370. For your use the Eddie ported trx9 race gas setup will surprise a lot that think different. Also with these big bores you should do a stinger mod to your pipe or go ahead and get a trx9b or trx5b or other bb type pipe.
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Hit me up 96motorhead in SoCal. Our group rides Glamis Oct to Mar every year. Bunch of 250r's to rip around Glamis sand.
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Well what do you guys recommend for pipes for this setup? I was thinking paul turner high rev. We have a paul turner high rev on one of our atc's and it hauls so I was leaning towards that. Also I don't want to spend more than like 600 bucks for a pipe/silencer , so it doesn't need to be the best pipe on the planet.
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I have the 330 +4 esr cylinder trx9 port with the trx9b pipe. I was really suprised with the performance. I've rode a pro x 363 CT and not much difference between the two.
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trx9b or trx5b are fantastic pipes. 5 is smoother 9 has more of a hit toward top.
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Fyi going in ATC guys
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Your best bet would be to get a pipe built for your motor. I "think" most atc pipes available will hinder your new motor a ton.
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Jerry Hall said in another thread that the PT Hirev was designed for a stock cylinder. The only new pipe that has come out is ESR. You would have to ask Eddie how well it would work with that cylinder
Arlan at LED wil make a pipe for $850. I am sure it is worth every penny. I was going to get one but due to unforeseen circumstances I will have to put that in hold.
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ooopps I was talking trx on the pipes and I dont know the atc avail pipes as well.
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Shoot 69-ss-396 a pm,he runs a pt hi rev on a 363 and she runs hard .
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Ya I have an atc250r. Also I'm very skeptical about the esr pipe because I've heard they have great power but the pipe finish is just horrible and flakes off after a while. I heard about some guys getting some in frame drag pipes from a company called shear I think, they said they only paid like 500-600 dollars if I remember correctly. Has anyone ever had experience with shear in frame pipes?
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Mat Shearer is who you are thinking of. One of the best pipe builders out there. I'm not too up on what is available for the ATC pipe wise.
FWIW I run a Shearer out of frame drag pipe on one of my bikes.
I am also running a regular TRX5 center mount on a 363 Sphinx. Non big bore pipe. yes the chrome finish from ESR is lacking. Wish we could get them raw.I eventually sand blasted mine and hit it with Hi-Temp Ceramic paint used on headers.
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if you need a pipe made your best bet is to find someone thats familiar with that particular engine and has made pipes for it before. they will likely have some good insight on what works. the best pipe maker really doesnt meen much if they have no experience with that engine, as it would pretty much be a shot in the dark for them. and without time to test and develop it further beyond the initial first design, most likely it will only perform on a mediocre level. im sure arlen, jerry and eddie would all tell you the same thing. takes time to get a pipe working really well. ive went through this stuff before when cpi made a pipe for me. good chance it might of been the first pipe he ever did for a old ktm. with one chance to get it right, the odds werent in his favor. ya it works and runs ok but i have no doubts if a sent him a pile of cash he could develop the pipe further and get more power
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I am also running a regular TRX5 center mount on a 363 Sphinx. Non big bore pipe. yes the chrome finish from ESR is lacking. Wish we could get them raw.I eventually sand blasted mine and hit it with Hi-Temp Ceramic paint used on headers.
You can get them raw. I have read where someone purchased raw and show chromed instead of the cost effective protecting std coat.
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if you need a pipe made your best bet is to find someone thats familiar with that particular engine and has made pipes for it before. they will likely have some good insight on what works. the best pipe maker really doesnt meen much if they have no experience with that engine, as it would pretty much be a shot in the dark for them.r
I believe Mat does have experience with ESR cylinders.
But a off the shelf ESR pipe will probably perform adequate for the OP.
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If I can get a raw esr atc5 I would so that. I like the raw look more to be honest, I just need to keep a ton of wd40 on it.
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if theres a atc pipe available im sure it would be fine. something from arlen wouldnt be a bad choice. 100x better than a fmf thats for sure. fmf has always rubbed me the wrong way. $200-$300 and they do almost nothing for performance. im not up to date with atc stuff so im not sure whats out there . thats why i made the last post. some bikes arent so common and need a pipe made
cant say i ride in water much. mostly sand and occasional dirt but i rarely put any oil on the pipe. got 3 bikes with raw pipes and theyre all doing fine.
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Ive heard good things about eddies atc5 pipe. Heres the link. Theyr out of stock at the moment.http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/atc250r%20ps%20kit.htm
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I agree, I will NEVER own any FMF pipe so nobody even bother recommending that, their stuff just makes racket. My dad only runs his bike at glamis and ocotillo and his raw paul turner rusted. That esr pipe/silencer combo you linked is what I was gonna probably end up getting. Also which port job is better for duning and drag racing, the trx9 or trx11?
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The trx11 is good for drag. My trx9 is a mid to high port. I trail ride with that also but can rip in the open.
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Hey im gona be riding some dunes up here in washington this weekend. Ill post some videos up and you can see how my esr350 all around port with a trx5 pipe performs on straights and hill climbs.. That can give ya atleast a small look as to if you want a 350 or 370 ya know..
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Cool, I'd like to see a video.
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if you need a pipe made your best bet is to find someone thats familiar with that particular engine and has made pipes for it before. they will likely have some good insight on what works. the best pipe maker really doesnt meen much if they have no experience with that engine, as it would pretty much be a shot in the dark for them. and without time to test and develop it further beyond the initial first design, most likely it will only perform on a mediocre level. im sure arlen, jerry and eddie would all tell you the same thing. takes time to get a pipe working really well. ive went through this stuff before when cpi made a pipe for me. good chance it might of been the first pipe he ever did for a old ktm. with one chance to get it right, the odds werent in his favor. ya it works and runs ok but i have no doubts if a sent him a pile of cash he could develop the pipe further and get more power
This is very true. The chance of a pipe fresh off the drawing board being anywhere close to optimum is not very good. All of us pipe builders do calculations, use computer programs and rely on years of past experience when we design a new pipe. I see too many new pipe builders advertising their custom built pipes in a way that leads potential customers to believe that the software these new pipe builders are using will not need any further development. This is misleading and a blatant admission of their level of experience in designing/developing pipes.
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Alright well i guess i lied.. I took 2 days of riding videos on a 32gb card. Had some cool shots and a big utv wreck that flipped over. When i try to upload them it keeps telling me the files are corrupt!! Its pissing me off!! I even called me nerdy friend over that knows tons about electronics and he said my go pro took a dump!! Wont record anything.. Sorry guys!!! I really wanted to upload them damn vids to. Ima purchase another over the winter and ill post more up next year.
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Where at in Washington? Moses Lake?
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Yepp was up there this past weekend. You ride there? Where you located?
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Rainier, Or across the river from Longview, WA. Never rode there being it'd be a toss up to go to Moses Lake for Florence from here.
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Ahh man i would def hit up oregon dunes!! Ive rode both and moses is half the play ground the oregon dunes are but its about 4 hours shorter of a ride for me so thats where we end up more. Maybe next year we could meet up out there and ride