TRX250R.ORG
General => Lounge => Topic started by: Pricecheck on October 05, 2014, 01:03:58 AM
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Well, I'm pissed again. Yesterday I took the bike out to ride and within 60' of very mild riding (after a warm up) my bogged and died. Kick start was stuck at TDC as well.
Tonight I took it apart and here's what I found. (http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/04/dc895a8ac053f6a04721f0985c9a567a.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/04/5ea3a4fc14c702fac23770a97756e22b.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/04/8c7c4566c1135140ffd42f62c62f34cb.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/04/c3aea903fba194e224abd3a192099001.jpg)
The reason why the clutch cover is off is because I was hoping it was the kicker shaft or gears.
I'm sick of this crap. The first two engine rebuilds were my fault. This one is beyond me. I do have the memory of reading Kyle b on the crank a while back and im wondering if that crank was rebuilt and the tins were damaged and made to fit. Nobody will know.
I'm not tackling this and my wife is sick of this motor. Gotta find the budget and see what time Neil has for this disaster!
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Looks like a classic wiesco crank blow up
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It took me out of riding probably the whole time here. It's about to start heavy snowing, then another deployment in the beginning until sept. Then that's winter again until April. Then it's not worth messing with the price unless I'm sick of not riding, which I will be.
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Wow that blows man. Thats a 4-mil right?
You need a backup motor for as much as that one is down.
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Crank tins can be easily damaged, not to mention the whole wiseco and older hot rods problems. Crankworks just rebuilt my 85cr500 crank(oem crank with a NOS OEM rod I had stashed away- you can't get a new oem crank or rod). They went ahead and welded the tins on it(no that wasn't free lol), but I'm glad they did. I've seen way to many pics like above.
That sucks PC. Was looking forward to possibly seeing you at Goldrush! At least it didn't happen there. My motor will prob be freshened up after Goldrush. It doesn't have that much time on it, but I've ran the crap out of it, plus it has a used crank in it(no names sharpied on it tho). Hopefully your cases didn't get damaged...
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Wow, hopefully the cylinder and cases are OK. When my tins came off the skirt on the puma broke and also took out the cases at the bottom. Now, all my tins are welded on.
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I may start welding tins when I have the time I f I do I want 80.00 plus shipping
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can you give more specific details on the crank assembly ? what manufacturer is it ? what rod is it ? has somebody previous to you rebuilt it ?
the tined cranks are not something that any joe blow can rebuild. takes a special fixture so it can be pressed together correct the first time without needing to hammer on it
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It also looks like it was lean.
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Well that perfect sharpie kyle crank didn't stay together long.
You just cant find any luck pricecheck. You were afraid of some corners being cut earlier and this fits that possibility. Best to move forward with some different hands this time.
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It also looks like it was lean.
could you explain ? if the a/f is not right i think generally the piston is the first to go but maybe youve got a different theory
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To me it looks like the tins started loosing pieces and thats what got up into the cylinder and head before the tins let go and locked it up.
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Obviously the crank failed.. however your plug is white and the piston has a pattern deep in the mess of particles that were floating around that looks like it could be detonation. Now again im looking at pictures on the net, but my initial feeling is two things going on here.
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Those damn tins! Fix the bitch, get your ride on!
That's a good deal Dave, that should be a must on all builds.
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Well, I was lean initially moving here but on the pilot. The plug I put in was a used that I just grabbed because my other was giving me issues (a guess). My bike doesn't like anything to do with cold weather.
When I blew it at gold rush bdt went threw the motor and put the Kyle crank in with the new 4 mil hot rods crank and piston and whatever else. Then I blew it like an idiot due to leaning out the mix. I went on la sleeve and bought the piston kit and Neil knocked out that top end bore and hone.
The thing has been ripping. It can lug down low and has got the balls to pull it out of a hole. I've been very impressed and even a guy with a yfz (not just some idiot) that I let ride it said it flat rips. Flies nice and straight too and better than his yfz!
This did this a while back but I was able to kick it eventually and it never did it again. Then the exact same thing happened here and the damage is shown.
Now on the rebuild. Neil will do the work for me but I just don't know when. I'm still into XC but now some MX. I'm liking mine but I think it might need another cylinder job, the last one. Due to this im thinking about a 363 instead. I like power and I've heard that there's no lacking it there. Whatever top end I go with i will have neil hit that motor with a fine tooth comb and get the tins welded.
I'm not sure on what crank is in it. I'm not going to split the cases and that crank will not move at all.
About gold rush. I couldn't make it this year since im in alaska. I really wanted to get out there and kick ass but this move here took that opportunity away.
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What causes the tins to fail? I'd love a start from scratch but I think that will be it if I put a new topend on.
It needs a new crank. Maybe rod. Cases look good and tranny better be good. I guess I'll tinker with polishing my side covers while it's down!
I'd love to do the work myself but if I go 363 then it needs out of house attention.
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I have a set of polished side covers forsale.
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Thanks hontrx265r. I think I'll pass. This will give me something to do during the winter.
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I may start welding tins when I have the time I f I do I want 80.00 plus shipping
That is some sexy welding!
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I was thinking the cylinder wall could use just a hone until I saw this!(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/05/f9df57b51e27ba031b5f81448f005e2a.jpg)
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I was thinking the cylinder wall could use just a hone until I saw this!
Yep, thats what happened to mine. The skirt got wedged in. When you take it apart it comes apart in pieces
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Ya that's done. New cylinder time
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So that piece can't come out and a new sleeve put in? That broken piece is a catastrophic failure?
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That piece that broke off is part of the sleeve. Is this a stock cylinder? Is there port work done to the cylinder? Most times a resleeve is a costly repair. New cylinders are not much more then the cost to resleeve. I only ask about the porting because unless you spent good money on porting and are in love with the work its almost not worth saving. Let's say you love the port work. You resleeve the cylinder. Now you still have to get someone to match the sleeve to your porting. So more $$$ your spending.
I know of a guy that does sleeves cheaper then anyone else. Still, the end result may be near the cost of a new cylinder.
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After seeing these pics, in my mind I can only guess what those cases look like & I dont have a good feeling. If they are not trashed, you B a lucky dude.
To re-sleeve that cylinder, for someone does cylinder sleeving, your looking no less than $450.00 & could go as high as $650.00 by the time its finished & ready to bolt back in place. That would be from a normal sleeving service. Theres a few out there can do them cheaper for sure. You'll just need to check around & find the one can do the job the best.
I did a lot of sleeving in the past, but when Eddie came out with his own cylinder & the price of them, put me right out of the sleeving business. Shucks, I even recommend folks to check out the ESR kits, it just makes good business sense for me to do so, much as Eddie has done for the 250R.
Being a stroker crank, rules out a Wiseco unless it was one from ESR when Eddie used them, so its either a Hot Rods or OEM stroked I would think. The new Hot Rods are a lot better, still though I would have the tins welded.
Looks like Dave gona end up with a new job, tin welder.
Neil
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Something else I noticed, ol PC got some skills boys, look, he pulled that jug off & the pipes still connected.
Neil
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Ha! Just pulled it with the header on. Almost got the whole thing off with the pipe!
I'm confused on it. I'm fairly certain I wasn't leaning it out. Then the fact that I could respectfully ride through a neighborhood with the throttle position and speed in that little bit of riding time. I just can't see it being lean that much. I literally have oil runs on my exhaust from my condition as well.
I did pull a piece of the tins out of the crank/case area and just popped out a chunk of the sleeve from the opposing side.
Looks like it'll be upgrade time when I do the rebuild. ESR and Neil are gonna be making money off of me with all of these builds! (Not smiling too much inside)
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On the bright side, you'll now end up with a motor with no "mystery" parts in it. I've been lucky to avoid aftermarket cranks so far, but soon will have one. You can bet that the crank will inspected and have the tins welded. No doubt abt it, building a motor isn't cheap(and that's with me doing most of the work-bearing replacement, assembly etc..., but I still know what to leave up to the pros such as machine work, porting etc...), but neither is having to redo it several times because of mistakes/failures. You wanna play, then you gotta pay. Good luck.
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What kind of crank was that?
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It was the one that had your name on it Kyle! It was from bdt but I haven't split the cases to confirm. Kind of scared to tackle that. Not much work space here and id rather clean up the mess and ship it off when that time comes.
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Im just curious what brand it was, i only run Hot Rods Cranks. If this was wiesco, it wasnt mine. I havent seen a hot rods do that before.
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even coc is smart enough to avoid wiseco crank assemblies. atleast he says he avoids them. saying and doing is two different things however
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The reason I mentioned lean is because I see the beginning of the famous circular pattern where the piston hole starts.
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I have a set of polished side covers forsale.
PM Sent
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I did have it lean in the beginning but not recently. I didn't do any chops here but weather has been awesome and altitude is just over sea level.
Anyways. Time to cleanup the garage so we can fit just one car in it. This one car crap sucks.
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If you say that was a previously used spark plug, then that most definitely looks lean.
I thought it was a brand new plug from the looks of it.
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I don't know when I used that plug. It could have been from my prior rides on the other builds. It wasn't soaked like mine from trying to crank it. It was about 50* out and the engine hated starting cold. I put that in and finally fired it up.
Let it idle as I got suited up and putted down the trail. Then I made a few low speed passes around the pond area to just get her lubed a little. At that time I was at 150*. I then started putting and made my way to the track. I creeped up the first jump and then down. Rolled over the double and then blipped the throttle on and off to climb the next but out of nowhere it died out.
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best of luck next time around. gotta watch for them guys just wanting to proflow your wallet :highly_amused:
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Was the skirt on the piston broken?
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It was just the cylinder skirt. The piston was in tact.
I'm curious as to why I was getting the lean circle on my piston. I wonder if the excessive heat or something from the crank grenading caused some of it.
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I would not pay much attention to reading the plug or piston at this point. I dont think you can accurately determine fuel mixture with all the damage
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True rsss. What I did read was the crack at the left side bottom engine mount area. Not just on the mount. It wraps half of the frame. Pics to come of that and the powdercoat at the lower frame tube.
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Here's the mount and then you can notice the webbing look starting to form from underneath.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/06/b84ac01a6f323b17ada233fa7aa48ef4.jpg)(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/06/987ae64cb82b65de2fa8d1dfa5fc214a.jpg)
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And this to help ease the pain!(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/06/0b6a17d63635242291fcb5985f1220bd.jpg)
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Sweet liquor or beer eases the pain.
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Creme brule yesterday. It was good. I'm about to start another thread about one thing.
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I think my step will be to fix the crack, beef up that lower motor mount area, order a gusset kit from tony and install it and look into a yfz-R swingarm and figure out that for a new rear suspension.
My main question is will my 250r carrier fit in it and will shimming need to happen for the chain to align? I'm all about some modification and im at the point where I'd rather do all cutting and welding before i repowder this frame. This means cutting off extra mounts, create a better cdi mount, etc. I'll also finish off all stock welds.
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Why would you use a YFZ swinger? That's a sin in the Honda world
Get yourself a nice aftermarket stock linkage swinger and call it a day
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I've got a nice aftermarket. Have a nice Houser -1 with stock linkage.
I leaned towards yfz because it's said to have similar geometry to the cr500 but with better availability. If the 500 setup isn't hard to find and isn't super pricey im all for building that setup. I've already built my front shock mounts and they are holding strong. A rear to me would be even easier.
The yfz is also a complete setup (linkage, shock and swingarm). All I would need to do is relocate the upper mount if the 250r carrier would fit.
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If a lean condition cause that crank tin to come off, be the first one I've ever seen. Those crank tins just give up after a while & it dont make no difference who owns it or if its Wiseco, Hot Rods or TRX OEM.
Something as small as a slight ding, on the outside of the tin has an affect on that tin. To understand it easier, say like your doing body work on a car & got to hammer out a dent, every time that hammer hits the metal it expands that metal some & in turn deforms it just a bit. If a lot of hammering is needed, your really getting into deforming the metal then.
If several dings are on the tins or say like one big one, it looses that tin on the crank & with all the jerking & snatching the crank will see, that tin will start to shift & once it contacts the big end pin, it will start to shear & crack.
Welding the tin to the crank web, is the only insurance that is wont come off the web. There may be cases where it has, but I dont know of any.
When we pump these engines up, we need any kind of insurance we can get to keep a part from failing. We cant be like the factorys on our quads & trike 2 strokes, build failure into something, so we can stay in business like they did years ago & even more so today with these new 4 pokers.
Neil
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Here's the question that may have been answered before. Why are there tins and not something solid? Weight? If it's weight then maybe something that isn't as heavy or cutout/relief points in the middle. Just like dimple dying. It removes material for lighter weight but strengthens it at the same time.
I just think with all of our smart fabricators out here there has to be a way around the tin style crank.
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Just like dimple dying. It removes material for lighter weight but strengthens it at the same time.
Your tins are made this way. Niel explained the process which these come apart. The tin slides back and forth around the crank. The relief for the crank pin starts hitting the pin and mushrooms out. This is a raw thin piece of sheet metal. You could tack it in a couple spots to hold it in place but then the gas from your motor would fill the crank tins creating an offset in balance. Best solution was to weld them in place
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Yeah I know they have that strengthened area around the flat sides but I was talking about making the whole crank halves solid and cutting out material if weight was an issue but not jeopardizing strength.
This would eliminate the stupid issue of tins failing. Say a crank is $300. I'd probably pay around $500 for a tinless crank that would fit my application and didn't hinder performance. That extra money outweighs these stupid tins destroying my motor like it did and costing more.
I just know someone has this in their head and wants to pull the trigger on making them.
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Been reading and reading and it seems like removing the tins completely doesn't have an adverse effect; at least not one I would notice.
Now don't get me wrong, my new build im going to try and get as much power down low as I can but removing the tins might be that piece of mind given with a little performance loss if any is even noticed. I just hate that some stupid sheet metal can cause so much damage.
My new motor will be a stroked 350 with attention given in certain areas that'll give top performance in XC and mx.
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I can't dish the bottom end that easily. I do think that this deployment I'll be upgrading the clutch basket and stuff as well. I believe that certain things can't be cheap and while my clutch works well, having that Hinson looks to be the way to go.
Thats down the road though. Priority is this frame and changing up the rear suspension. Then the reworked motor with a completely new topend will be dropped in. Those waiting for this to take place, don't. I don't know when I'll be doing this because it's already down to 17* here and I'll be deploying during the heavy winter time and getting back at this time next year. Not worth dropping the money right now.
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i would have the tins welded on rather than removing them but its your call. seems honda was the only one to use tins. everyone else used plastic stuffers which served the same purpose, just different approach. if you plan to stay at stock stroke i would use honda crankshaft.
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Dan, you know how I like the laeger! I'm definitely stroking my next motor.
You talking your recent laeger?
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