TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: Jimbo45 on March 10, 2015, 08:49:58 PM
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So I finally got my electrical gremlin, and jetting pretty well figured out (although I still think there is something defective on the idle circuit on this brand new Airstriker), I put my plastics back on today, after completely making a new wiring harness, so I can have lights. I fired it up to test out the lighting, and tune the airscrew, since it was 20 degrees warmer today, since the last time I fired it up. Keep in mind, I have yet to take this R on a ride, only short test runs, near my house.
So, I fire it up, and what is odd, is that when engine is cold, it always fires up first or second kick, WITHOUT the choke, and idles strong and fast, as if the choke was on!? Then, after a minute, it will settle into a normal idle. I have never needed choke on this 38PWK for some reason. Then, I fine tuned the airscrew (which is difficult, because it doesn't seem to make much difference where I set it. It will slow the idle at anything less than 1.75 turns out, but at that setting, and even turning it all the way out, doesn't seem to make a difference in idle speed. Also, after warming up, if i rev it, the idle will hang high a bit somtimes for a few seconds, sometimes hang until I back out the idle speed screw.? As I said, I think the new carb has something wonky in the idle circuit. It seems to defy logic that I can run a #40 pilot, even when its 10 degrees outside, and it still seems a bit rich at 1.5 turns out on the airscrew. ?
ANyway, the purpose for this post......steam/pressure coming out the coolant overflow tank vent. I had noticed my overflow tank coolant level always seemed to rise after even short runnings of the motor. I replaced the rad cap, thinking maybe it was bad. Fired it up today and warmed it up for the previous mentioned reasons, and happened to look at the coolant reservoir vent tube. It was constantly putting off steam, and when looking at the coolant tank where the overflow hose connects, I could see a constant stream of bubbles coming in. DAM! It was not overheating.....I checked the head temp with my laser thermometer multiple times, and it was always right at 150 degrees. It did not seem to expel gas faster as I revved it for some reason. WHAT the heck? I am assuming that I have a head gasket problem, in that some combustion gases are being pushed into the coolant passages at the head gasket. Am I right? This is not normal, right?
*sigh* I just want to get all the bugs worked out and be able to ride this thing!
Video:
[video]http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150310_175156_zpsvmq5ei2n.mp4[/video]
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sounds like you have a head gasket problem if your getting those bubbles
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Thats one of the funniest video's I have ever seen. Never seen that in all my years. Good thing its just the head gasket. I will send you a new one priority mail free of charge other than shipping.
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Thats one of the funniest video's I have ever seen. Never seen that in all my years. Good thing its just the head gasket. I will send you a new one priority mail free of charge other than shipping.
Wow, thanks Tony. Just trying to reason this out in my head though....why is this happening? I used a brand new thick 3 piece oem head gasket, ground for a 69mm bore, when I put this together. Do you have a different kind of gasket that will cure this? If so, tell me when and where to send the money! Thank you sir!
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Have been through the head gasket nightmare myself. 2 things come to mind. #1 you cannot re use a head gasket. #2 Even if you use a new head gasket a warped head will always leak no matter how many times you have replaced the gasket. Did you re torque the head after break in? If your water pump was out and no coolant was getting to the head it could have easily warped.
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Wow, thanks Tony. Just trying to reason this out in my head though....why is this happening? I used a brand new thick 3 piece oem head gasket, ground for a 69mm bore, when I put this together. Do you have a different kind of gasket that will cure this? If so, tell me when and where to send the money! Thank you sir!
You cannot usually grind a head gasket for a large bore. Grinding a head gasket gets into or too close to the stamped ridge in the gasket that seals the high combustion pressure. Look at the gasket and see how close your grinding came to this ridge in the gasket.
Like mentioned earlier, make sure the head and top of the cylinder are flat and without ANY imperfections on the gasket sealing surfaces.
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Tony, it was a new oem head gasket, and yes I retorqued it to 22 ft lbs. The gasket surfaces were surgically clean. This is the third gasket I have tried. The first two were wiseco, and leaked coolant outside the cylinder. This is also the second head I have tried. I think the problem could also be the cyl deck....it has a super thick sleeve installed that comes really close to the water jackets. Well, I guess I will have to scrap this top end (sucks, it has 180 psi compression), and start over. I Don't even want to try a cool head on this cylinder to find it leaks too. Guess I will have my original ported 86 cylinder bored and decked, and the other head I have cut and checked. I wonder what all that will cost. Guess my riding season is not gonna happen until I save up more money. Frustrating!!!
Here is pics of the deck, head, and gasket right before installation.....
Ugh! This is getting old! It's my birthday today, and my goal was to take the bike out for the first time today! Welp, that's not gonna happen.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150127_162503_zpsvgoywaor.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jimbo45/media/20150127_162503_zpsvgoywaor.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150127_162649_zpsinbt1p0y.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jimbo45/media/20150127_162649_zpsinbt1p0y.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150127_162753_zpslnwmpw7n.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jimbo45/media/20150127_162753_zpslnwmpw7n.jpg.html)
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You cannot usually grind a head gasket for a large bore. Grinding a head gasket gets into or too close to the stamped ridge in the gasket that seals the high combustion pressure. Look at the gasket and see how close your grinding came to this ridge in the gasket.
Like mentioned earlier, make sure the head and top of the cylinder are flat and without ANY imperfections on the gasket sealing surfaces.
Thanks Jerry. What gasket do you recommend I use for a 69 mm bore? The first two wiseco ones I tried, coolant seeped outside the head.
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bike will still run with a slightly leaking head gasket, go rip that sucker for ur birthday :D
also u can have the surface ground on the cylinder no biggie, or u can have it cut for o-rings for a coolhead also no biggie.
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bike will still run with a slightly leaking head gasket, go rip that sucker for ur birthday :D
..................as long as the engine stays full of coolant you will be ok............but if the engine gets low on coolant you may fry the top end.
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Have it lapped and also cut for o-rings. That should solve your problem
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of course, just keep the radiator topped off :)
Happy b-day btw :)
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Sorry, I don't have the 69mm gaskets. Mine are all clearanced for the 67mm. When you pull the head look to see where the leak is at. Check the head and cylinder top for flatness with a straight edge. The cylinder should have been cut flat after the sleeve was installed. The sleeve may have dropped creating a step right next to the coolant passage. Still sounds like the head may be warped which is the easiest to fix.
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Shouldn't the sleeve be a hair proud of the jug?
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Sorry, I don't have the 69mm gaskets. Mine are all clearanced for the 67mm. When you pull the head look to see where the leak is at. Check the head and cylinder top for flatness with a straight edge. The cylinder should have been cut flat after the sleeve was installed. The sleeve may have dropped creating a step right next to the coolant passage. Still sounds like the head may be warped which is the easiest to fix.
I think there is a step at the sleeve. I noticed it when cleaning the old gasket off.
I would like to just send off the other head I have, to someone that can lap it, cut it for a 69mm bore, and shape the squish properly. Problem is, I don't know where to send it, and can't spend a ton on it. The other part of me just wants to scrap this whole top end, and just have the one that came on this bike bored (if its possible, the one has a 68mm now), trued and the head worked to match.
This top end was bought used, with said to have only 5 hours on it. That was probably true, since the piston looked good and it has good compression. But, I suspect the previous owner had the same gasket issue. I don't know that for sure, but can't imagine it didn't have the problem before. The sleeve job was bad.....the bottom wasn't even blended to the ports, and no chamfer was cut on the bottom, to help insert the piston and rings. :upset:
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of course, just keep the radiator topped off :)
Happy b-day btw :)
Thanks. :D Too late now to load up and head out though. :upset: I might take it to my brother's this weekend, and ride a little, and keep and eye on the coolant.
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You cannot usually grind a head gasket for a large bore. Grinding a head gasket gets into or too close to the stamped ridge in the gasket that seals the high combustion pressure. Look at the gasket and see how close your grinding came to this ridge in the gasket.
Like mentioned earlier, make sure the head and top of the cylinder are flat and without ANY imperfections on the gasket sealing surfaces.
You know, come to think of it, I recall when I installed this gasket, thinking the same thing. I noticed it was ground into the ridge that is pressed into the gasket and thought to myself that the combustion gases wouldn't seem to seal as well with it cut like that. But, this $35 gasket was "guaranteed" not to leak, by the seller, lol. I wonder if I can get my money back, lol. I am not going to mention where I got it, lol.
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I know of a place to send it out if you want. (In MI) I have them do my machine work and theyr really good and there prices are not ban. Its a small shop about 30 min from my house. Lakes motorsports
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"guaranteed"
:hyp::hyp::hyp::hyp:
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Its probably a stock gasket some guy bought and ground it down and re sell for a few bucks more with the hopes that most people won't have a leak problem.
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I know of a place to send it out if you want. (In MI) I have them do my machine work and theyr really good and there prices are not ban. Its a small shop about 30 min from my house. Lakes motorsports
I will keep that in mind. They do a lot of 2 stroke stuff?
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Its probably a stock gasket some guy bought and ground it down and re sell for a few bucks more with the hopes that most people won't have a leak problem.
Thats exactly what it was.
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Yes lots of 2 strokes. Do you know those little 90cc ATVs that all the little kids are riding/ racing ? There's the same as the predator 90's just with different plastic. Well these guys claim to have the fastest one on sand. I've seen one they set up! Its one badd little guy lol! They have never dome me wrong. My daughters blaster my banshee and my R.
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So what are you guys using for thick (don't want to run straight race gas) reliable, OEM style gaskets, that work with a 68mm or 69mm bore? What are my options?
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Just an idea.....o-rings are pretty rock solid. How about getting your head and jug cut of o-rings and have your head /dome cut for pump gas. Just a thought. Otherwise I don't have an opinion on gaskets cause I've never used them lol
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Just an idea.....o-rings are pretty rock solid. How about getting your head and jug cut of o-rings and have your head /dome cut for pump gas. Just a thought. Otherwise I don't have an opinion on gaskets cause I've never used them lol
Who offers this service?
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Well the machine shop that I go to cut stroker domes into the stock head on my banshee. I'm pretty sure they can do o-rings as well.
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You might want to move on to a 310 or ??? cyl. These big oem cyl have proven that they can be head aches. Most that tell you different are looking to cash in on some $$ from you or others reading the thread by promoting the oem cyl use vs others 300 range and up options. Once that cast in sleeve of an oem is changed it is no more bulletproof then any other cyl and going bigger you can go beyond its designed water jacket and integrity intentions real quick. It sucks $$$ wise but maybe run your old stuff on the lower end $$ wise until you can get the cash together for something that was intended to be bigger.
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You might want to move on to a 310 or ??? cyl. These big oem cyl have proven that they can be head aches. Most that tell you different are looking to cash in on some $$ from you or others reading the thread by promoting the oem cyl use vs others 300 range and up options. Once that cast in sleeve of an oem is changed it is no more bulletproof then any other cyl and going bigger you can go beyond its designed water jacket and integrity intentions real quick. It sucks $$$ wise but maybe run your old stuff on the lower end $$ wise until you can get the cash together for something that was intended to be bigger.
Probably some real sound advice right there, and I agree. But, I really can't go to the trouble and expense of removing the engine and sending it off to have the cases bored right now for a BB top end. Maybe next year. I just want a reliable overbore and correct head, that seals properly, so I can go ride with my son. I don't care about tons of horsepower at this point. I didn't think this was gonna be that hard. I know, its a 30 year old bike, and I should have expected to go through some issues.
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I just wish there was someone I could send my '86 jug and head to, that would bore and true up the deck on the cyl, to 68.5mm or 69mm whichever is required, and include whatever gaskets/o-rings/spacers (if the cyl height is reduced due to machining) I may need, and lap the head, and cut it for the new bore diameter, and adjust the dome for pump gas. I then get it back, buy a piston kit, and install. I just don't know who to go to to trust for this, and that won't charge my first born. I am out of funds for this project. I will call the shop dem3500 suggested, and see what they suggest.
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If you are wanting to keep the cases together right now there is no case mods required for a 310 or also a lot of guys run a bolt on 330. They have less bores avail but I would run a bolt on 330 if I needed to. I am not afraid of them and have seen some run very well.
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I have another stock head (from the '88 top end that actually came with this sleeved cyl I bought used) I could try with a new stock sized head gasket, for the time being. How bad is that? Using a Tusk OEM style 66mm head gasket on a 69mm bore. Just for the time being, to see if it leaks, and maybe ride until I get my other top end either redone or buy another kit altogether?
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If you are wanting to keep the cases together right now there is no case mods required for a 310 or also a lot of guys run a bolt on 330. They have less bores avail but I would run a bolt on 330 if I needed to. I am not afraid of them and have seen some run very well.
Can you point me towards some of those bolt on options, keeping in mind top horsepower is not a priority to me, but reliability and longevity is. Oh, and cost...that is a facter as well. LOL. Thanks for the help guys!
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I would just send the cylinder and head to get them machined flat. Cometic sells a 68mm and 72mm 1 piece head gasket for the 250r. I think they have a 69mm also I just don't see it on ebay. They make the gaskets from scratch, so they are not just the stock one altered. Should be the cheapest most reliable fix. Proly only need to get the cylinder evened up. You can sand the head yourself with sand paper laying on a flat surface.
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I would just send the cylinder and head to get them machined flat. Cometic sells a 68mm and 72mm 1 piece head gasket for the 250r. I think they have a 69mm also I just don't see it on ebay. They make the gaskets from scratch, so they are not just the stock one altered. Should be the cheapest most reliable fix.
Are the Cometic fiber gaskets the same as the Wiseco ones? Because I tried two of those, and coolant dribbled down the cylinder with those. Is that what you guys are using on over bores....the fiber Cometic and Wiseco gaskets?
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I would just send the cylinder and head to get them machined flat. Cometic sells a 68mm and 72mm 1 piece head gasket for the 250r. I think they have a 69mm also I just don't see it on ebay. They make the gaskets from scratch, so they are not just the stock one altered. Should be the cheapest most reliable fix. Proly only need to get the cylinder evened up. You can sand the head yourself with sand paper laying on a flat surface.
Oh, and where do I send them to get them machined flat? If the cyl is machined shorter, then do I have to worry about the piston too high in the bore, and need a thicker than normal head gasket?
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I am out to the garage to take this sumbish apart. Again.
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I am out to the garage to take this sumbish apart. Again.
Pull the head and check to see where the piston is at top dead center. If you take .010" off the top of the cylinder to make it straight, you just need to make sure your rings are not going to go over the top. Take a close pic at TDC.
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Pull the head and check to see where the piston is at top dead center. If you take .010" off the top of the cylinder to make it straight, you just need to make sure your rings are not going to go over the top. Take a close pic at TDC.
Will do.
I just got done working the '88 head that came with this cylinder. Most will balk at this, but poor people have poor ways.... the head had some deep scratching, so I took a new piece of clean 220 grit wet paper, and put it on a piece of glass on my flat countertop. I lapped this head in circles, turning it 1/6th of a turn every fifty orbits, for several rounds. After checking, I could see where it was sanding down in all areas but two. It was warped for sure. So, I continued, until all was sanded out, and it has a uniform smooth flat face. Looks beautiful. I know its not like precision machining, but I bet its dam close. I will get a pic of it before I put it on.
Anyway, I am gonna swap this head I just lapped, and either re use the gasket that is on there (I know, I know), or should I use the new OEM gasket I have, even though it is for a 66-67mm instead of this 69mm? I know none of this is ideal, but I am definitely on a budget, and just want to make it run until I can either get my other top redone, or buy a 310 kit.
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It was warped for sure. So, I continued, until all was sanded out, and it has a uniform smooth flat face. Looks beautiful. I know its not like precision machining, but I bet its dam close.
Anyway, I am gonna swap this head I just lapped, and either re use the gasket that is on there (I know, I know), or should I use the new OEM gasket I have, even though it is for a 66-67mm instead of this 69mm? I know none of this is ideal, but I am definitely on a budget, and just want to make it run
As long as the piston does not hit the smaller ID of the OEM gasket you are fine. You only have a problem if the piston travels beyond the top of the cylinder and hits the gasket. I use the poor mans head flattening technique all the time. Works freaking perfect.
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As long as the piston does not hit the smaller ID of the OEM gasket you are fine. You only have a problem if the piston travels beyond the top of the cylinder and hits the gasket. I use the poor mans head flattening technique all the time. Works freaking perfect.
You should see this head I lapped. It is a thing of beauty. I am fairly confident it is as true as about any stock head would be. Headed out now. Will post an update.......
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Sweet
Give it a go.
Hopefully you can get it running until you are ready to do whatever you want to do next.
Good luck....
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Well, I have it apart. I learned a few things.....
Here is the head I took off......obvious where the combustion gases were leaking into the coolant passage.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_214359_zpslj1lkhd6.jpg)
Here is the shot of the deck before I wiped anything off (no sign of gases leaking on the cyl side of the gasket).....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_220244_zpsud1hlngg.jpg)
Here is the head side of the gasket where the pressure leak was. Notice how it is right in the middle of the front water passage. Hmmmmmmm.......
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_215655_zpsn6qkylcd.jpg)
Why was that pressure leak right in the middle front of the head? Well, see that little smashed part of the brass rivet that holds the gasket layers together?........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_215712_zpshcgnwwac.jpg)
The smashed rivet even made a part circle mark on the outside edge of the head:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_222133_zpswkbv7lat.jpg)
Interesting. I am assuming the dam rivet held up the head in that spot, and made the gasket not seal. It is obvious to me. Look even the rear rivet has a smashed part where it got smashed in between the head and cylinder.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_215731_zpshh06czug.jpg)
Lesson that I learned......OEM style gaskets are great, but you need to remove the rivets or at least cut away part of them, so they don't get wedged in between the head and cylinder.
Why is this not happening to anyone but me???????????????????
Tony, here are some pics I took of the deck height, above the piston at TDC. I didn't measure, but it appears there is at least 1/16". I put my new OEM gasket on there, and held it down hard with my thumb, and it appears it has good clearance from the piston, so I am gonna put the new OEM style 3 piece gasket 66mm gasket on there with the head I just lapped, AFTER I REMOVE HALF OF THE RIVETS, and CROSS MY FINGERS!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_221101_zpsx95qwnd2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_221306_zpsctjt0hoo.jpg)
Here is the head I hand lapped:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_211106_zpsozzi5jcv.jpg)
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Those rivets are not OEM. Looks like cheaper junk. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Top-End-Head-Gasket-Kit-Honda-TRX-250R-1986-1989-86-87-88-89-/360972295369?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item540ba01cc9&vxp=mtr Honda would not build interference into their parts. Is the head you just pulled off cut to 69mm also? You might want to put the head you lapped back on with an OEM gasket without rivets so the gasket is the same diameter as the head. You proly already got that figured out.
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That head I have pictured above that I just lapped was the one that came on this 69mm cylinder. I suppose it is cut to match, IDK. I had swapped to the '86 head (with the pressure leak), because of an external coolant leak originally with the '88 head.
I am going to put this '88 lapped head on with the new Tusk OEM style 3 piece gasket I have, after I cut the rivets away. I think that may work actually.
The ground "OEM" gasket I bought looks identical to the Tusk one I have here, rivets and all. I don't think the ground one I purchased was made by Honda. It appears that it was Tusk. Might be a good gasket, but those rivets are a problem!!!!!!!!!!
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I wonder if that "oem" headgasket the clown sold you is even oem. This is an oem atc gasket & the rivets & rivet tabs look different:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/322_4752_2017-04-18_9932.jpg)
and this used one is a trx gasket, I checked the rivet tabs against the new oem gasket I put on my bike last year & there the same:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/322_4753_2017-04-18_9362.jpg)
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Headed back out. I need a beer.......
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I wonder if that "oem" headgasket the clown sold you is even oem. This is an oem atc gasket & the rivets & rivet tabs look different:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/322_4752_2017-04-18_6794.jpg)
and this used one is a trx gasket, I checked the rivet tabs against the new oem gasket I put on my bike last year & there the same:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/322_4753_2017-04-18_8166.jpg)
Yep, I have an true OEM used gasket here that came off of one of these top ends,,,,,,the rivets don't look like the ones on the "ground OEM". Those big rivets SUCK!
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The ground "OEM" gasket I bought looks identical to the Tusk one I have here, rivets and all. I don't think the ground one I purchased was made by Honda. It appears that it was Tusk. Might be a good gasket, but those rivets are a problem!!!!!!!!!!
OEM does not have brass rivets. You should be able to place the gasket on the head to see if the rivets clear and the bores line up
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Yeah, Tony, my quotes around OEM were meant as sarcasm. It's NOT an oem gasket. Lol
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Well, I have it apart. I learned a few things.....
Here is the head I took off......obvious where the combustion gases were leaking into the coolant passage.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_214359_zpslj1lkhd6.jpg)
Here is the shot of the deck before I wiped anything off (no sign of gases leaking on the cyl side of the gasket).....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_220244_zpsud1hlngg.jpg)
Here is the head side of the gasket where the pressure leak was. Notice how it is right in the middle of the front water passage. Hmmmmmmm.......
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_215655_zpsn6qkylcd.jpg)
Why was that pressure leak right in the middle front of the head? Well, see that little smashed part of the brass rivet that holds the gasket layers together?........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_215712_zpshcgnwwac.jpg)
The smashed rivet even made a part circle mark on the outside edge of the head:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_222133_zpswkbv7lat.jpg)
Interesting. I am assuming the dam rivet held up the head in that spot, and made the gasket not seal. It is obvious to me. Look even the rear rivet has a smashed part where it got smashed in between the head and cylinder.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_215731_zpshh06czug.jpg)
Lesson that I learned......OEM style gaskets are great, but you need to remove the rivets or at least cut away part of them, so they don't get wedged in between the head and cylinder.
Why is this not happening to anyone but me???????????????????
Tony, here are some pics I took of the deck height, above the piston at TDC. I didn't measure, but it appears there is at least 1/16". I put my new OEM gasket on there, and held it down hard with my thumb, and it appears it has good clearance from the piston, so I am gonna put the new OEM style 3 piece gasket 66mm gasket on there with the head I just lapped, AFTER I REMOVE HALF OF THE RIVETS, and CROSS MY FINGERS!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_221101_zpsx95qwnd2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_221306_zpsctjt0hoo.jpg)
Here is the head I hand lapped:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_211106_zpsozzi5jcv.jpg)
It looks like the head is not machined for the big piston and the piston is hitting the head very lightly. A piston hitting the head may also cause the gasket to leak.
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Yeah, Tony, my quotes around OEM were meant as sarcasm. It's NOT an oem gasket. Lol
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I
It looks like the head is not machined for the big piston and the piston is hitting the head very lightly. A piston hitting the head may also cause the gasket to leak.
Jerry, those are two different heads you are seeing in my pics. The one with the black streak is the one I was running, and may not be sized. the last head picture that is cleaned up, came with the top end that I bought on this cylinder. It measures close to 69 millimeters where the dome starts.
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I just took 45 seconds and cut half of the rivets off of the tusk 3 piece gasket that I have. I am going to try to use this with the lapped head that I have. we will see what happens(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20150311_233458_zpsigowwtj2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/jimbo45/media/20150311_233458_zpsigowwtj2.jpg.html)
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Is this part being sold as a modified oem and it's not oem?? Defiantly sold and bragged about and promoted for this exact oem bb fix. At a minimum it wasn't done being modified. What a shocker. smh. And the people that make and sell those original gaskets to poor unknowing R owners is another smh.
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"guaranteed"
:hyp::hyp::hyp::hyp:
(https://i.imgflip.com/iqxo0.jpg)
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"lol"
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Unbelievable! I checked the other site & coc says it's not the rivet causing the issue, it's because the sealing surfaces aren't flat. What a maroon!
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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: your on a roll there jesse. i got my ab workout today lol
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Unbelievable! I checked the other site & coc says it's not the rivet causing the issue, it's because the sealing surfaces aren't flat. What a maroon!
I read that also ,its funny that its always the customers fault that he sells and builds crap .Jimbo,don't forget to take another look at your jetting once you get the head gasket fixed .The piston was definitely hitting the head you pulled off
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Unbelievable! I checked the other site & coc says it's not the rivet causing the issue, it's because the sealing surfaces aren't flat. What a maroon!
Is that where this gasket came from?
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Is that where this gasket came from?
The OP said he was not going to say where he got it. But Carlos claims they use these on all big bores without any problems. :lies:
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The OP said he was not going to say where he got it. But Carlos claims they use these on all big bores without any problems. :lies:
Ahhhhh soooo .....I see! Ha
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It has ALWAYS been like this from him. A never ending supply of dirty low life demotion, lies, deflection, twists, cons and spins.
In his thread sales pitch of this gasket for this user he called it a modified OEM gasket but then in the resulting problem thread he calls it the xxx BB OEM Style Gasket. What the guy got was some pos oe copy crap with the revits in the sealing surface.
smh smh smh.
Endless BS.
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I read that also ,its funny that its always the customers fault that he sells and builds crap .Jimbo,don't forget to take another look at your jetting once you get the head gasket fixed .The piston was definitely hitting the head you pulled off
Not doubting or questioning you, but how do you know that? What are you seeing?
I don't know how it could have been hitting the head. The piston is well below the deck at TDC, and that was a THICK head gasket at 1.6mm.
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Is that where this gasket came from?
Yep
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The OP said he was not going to say where he got it. But Carlos claims they use these on all big bores without any problems. :lies:
I changed my mind. I will say. I got it from BDT.
Once he starts putting the leak blame on me, all bets are off. Still wondering how that "guarantee" works.......
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So did he claim that was a Honda gasket that was not ground to fit the big bore or am I miss reading? How can anyone say your head is the problem when the rivet is so far into the head that it leaves a mark on the cylinder and head!? WT$ !?!?!?
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Not doubting or questioning you, but how do you know that? What are you seeing?
I don't know how it could have been hitting the head. The piston is well below the deck at TDC, and that was a THICK head gasket at 1.6mm.
There is a ring about 1 to 1.5 mm around most of the outer circumference of the piston that is a different color from the rest of the piston crown. There is a corresponding ring on the head gasket surface that also shows about a 1 to 1.5mm ring that may be due to very light contact being made with the piston. This ring is not due to temperature but some type of mechanical contact.
Piston crown color is due to variation in piston crown temperature. Take your calipers and measure the outside diameter of the squish band where it intersects the head gasket surface. Now measure the inside diameter of this thin ring on the top of the piston and see if they have the same dimension.
The piston looks like it is hitting something. It may be the head gasket hanging out into the bore or the piston is hitting the head.
You may be experiencing multiple problems.
1. Wrong head gasket, one that was not made for a big bore.r
2. Head gasket rivets in the wrong place
3. A head not machined for a big bore.
4. A very loose rod and or main bearings.
# 4 is not likely because a lower end that loose would be spewing bearing fragments and your piston crown does not show any evidence of this problem.
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I got $20 on #2
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I'm going with #1 but that kind of causes #2 lol
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I'm going with 2 as well.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/istmm.jpg)
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There is a ring about 1 to 1.5 mm around most of the outer circumference of the piston that is a different color from the rest of the piston crown. There is a corresponding ring on the head gasket surface that also shows about a 1 to 1.5mm ring that may be due to very light contact being made with the piston. This ring is not due to temperature but some type of mechanical contact.
Piston crown color is due to variation in piston crown temperature. Take your calipers and measure the outside diameter of the squish band where it intersects the head gasket surface. Now measure the inside diameter of this thin ring on the top of the piston and see if they have the same dimension.
The piston looks like it is hitting something. It may be the head gasket hanging out into the bore or the piston is hitting the head.
You may be experiencing multiple problems.
1. Wrong head gasket, one that was not made for a big bore.r
2. Head gasket rivets in the wrong place
3. A head not machined for a big bore.
4. A very loose rod and or main bearings.
# 4 is not likely because a lower end that loose would be spewing bearing fragments and your piston crown does not show any evidence of this problem.
Jerry I saw that little 2mm lighter color ring around the edge of the piston. It couldn't have hit that gasket, since the gasket was 69mm, the same as the bore. The ring on the head and gasket are from the pressed "V" ring in that gasket I think. You are right though about the head chamber not opened up for 69mm bore, though. When I measured it, I think it was at about 67mm where the chamber stops and the sealing surface starts. But that seems like it would only overlap the bore about 1 mm. That is how this top end was run when I got it (I know that doesn't make it right though). I don't think the piston could hit the ridge on the head, considering the piston edge is well below the deck at TDC, and add to that a 1.6mm head gasket. I don't know though, I seem to have issues with this stuff I don't expect all the time.
So, this whole top end is drving me crazy. I don't like the thought of the piston hitting anything. So, help me out here guys:
1. Is there a shop I could send my other head into, that would true it, cut it for 69mm, and adjust the dome/squish for about 95 octane, and maybe cut it for o-rings?
a. I am a little apprehensive about o-rings on this cylinder, due to the way the sleeve fits...I would expect coolant to seep up through head bolts with out a gasket sealing around each water passage.
2. If I use a gasket, I am running out of options for this 69mm bore......I tried two of the cometic/wiesco fiber ones with the metal ring, and both leaked coolant a little with this cylinder.
3. I could find a place like dem3500 suggested, to send in my other top end, for boring, truing, head cutting, etc., but then I am also buying another piston, and will be up in the hundreds of dollars.
4. Man, if I had $640 I would just buy an ESR 310 kit and be done with it. Are there any other lower priced bolt on top halfs out there?
*sigh* Now I don't even want to ride it, and risk bottom end damage, for fear of it not being right.
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...Oh, and another question about another option I was considering.....
Cool heads. Those seem kinda universal. How big are the chambers' diameter cut? How does one used the same head like this for different bore sizes?
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Lakes motor sports.
248-674-0663
Ask to talk to mike.
If he's buisy or not there just ask for a return call when he's available.
It doesn't cost anything to ask for advice. Hell if your on a budget he will probably work with you on the price. Don't quote me on that but I THINK he will.
Explain your situation and ask his advice and a ball park price. He's a totally cool dude (kind of nerdy lol) that knows his stuff. I've been I'm there many times. He will probably remember me. Tell him the guy with the pink blaster cylinder sent you lol.
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...Oh, and another question about another option I was considering.....
Cool heads. Those seem kinda universal. How big are the chambers' diameter cut? How does one used the same head like this for different bore sizes?
The domes are removable and individually cut for the apication
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neil at c-leigh racing, jerry can have it done for you, arlan can do it for you. its just a matter of contacting them, talking over ur options with them, picking the right one for you and sending it off.
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Jimbo your concern about coolant seepage around the studs using an oring head gasket is solved by copper washers and acorn nuts on the head studs. The other thing that will need to be done to the head is limiting the coolant passages on the intake side so the exhaust side gets more coolant flow...this is usually done by the steel head gasket.
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Lakes motor sports.
248-674-0663
Ask to talk to mike.
If he's buisy or not there just ask for a return call when he's available.
It doesn't cost anything to ask for advice. Hell if your on a budget he will probably work with you on the price. Don't quote me on that but I THINK he will.
Explain your situation and ask his advice and a ball park price. He's a totally cool dude (kind of nerdy lol) that knows his stuff. I've been I'm there many times. He will probably remember me. Tell him the guy with the pink blaster cylinder sent you lol.
Had a nice chat with them a few minutes ago. My '86 head is in a box and headed to the post office right now! Thanks!
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...Oh, and another question about another option I was considering.....
Cool heads. Those seem kinda universal. How big are the chambers' diameter cut? How does one used the same head like this for different bore sizes?
When I make domes or machine combustion chambers I do not like to make the step in the squish band larger than the bore. Making the squish OD larger than the bore can cause detonation issues on highly developed engines and or slightly miss-tuned engines. Unfortunately many shops or dome manufactures will cut the squish OD in the head for the last aftermarket oversize piston that is available for that model.
Honda usually machines the squish OD to 66.5 mm on the 250Rs but uses so much piston to head clearance the piston will never hit the head even when the head is not centered over the bore. Often aftermarket pistons that are larger than the gasket will hit the gasket and then the gasket will hit the head
Most recreational engines do not have dowels or means to exactly center the head over the bore but use the head studs to approximate centering the head over the bore. High performance engines need close piston to head clearances to promote good combustion, prevent detonation and keep the piston crown cool. Depending upon the engine package, the RPM range the engine is developed to operate and the condition of the lower end, we typically set up the piston to head clearances on the 250Rs in the .025" to .050" range.
Using the studs to center the head over the bore will usually allow a 0.5 to 1.0mm of uncertainty, requiring the squish OD to be .5 to 1.0 mm larger than the bore to prevent the piston from hitting any part of the head that is hanging out into the bore.
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Jerry, I always tried to just move the head around & try to feel for center but what's your opinion on the best way to center the head with the cylinder installed?
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Jerry, I always tried to just move the head around & try to feel for center but what's your opinion on the best way to center the head with the cylinder installed?
Wouldn't a simple "twist" of the head, to take out slack laterally, be the simplest way? At least that would center it up as far as the studs holes are concerned. Now, if the bowl wasn't cut concentric with the stud holes, then this wouldn't help much. Never thought about this before......
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(https://i.imgflip.com/istmm.jpg)
Your a dork! I looked back to see if there was a #5:lol:
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neil at c-leigh racing, jerry can have it done for you, arlan can do it for you. its just a matter of contacting them, talking over ur options with them, picking the right one for you and sending it off.
I dont think Arlan would work on this cylinder. These LA Sleeve 300 resleeves have been known to have issues. Coolant leaks (between the sleeve and cylinder) and head gasket problems. Last i talked to him, he didnt want anything to do with them. Arlan did develop his own resleeve kit back in the day. He designed a sleeve and had a company make them for him. This is what Barry Hawk and Bill Ballance used in many of the GNCC races. He had addressed the desigh issues and they were rock solid.
Jimbo, I wouldn't dink around with this cylinder too much more. I have heard of people having good luck with them, but I an have talked personally with more saying they have had nothing but problems. Anyways, best of luck, I hope you get to ride soon
Best regards
-Jason
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I dont think Arlan would work on this cylinder. These LA Sleeve 300 resleeves have been known to have issues. Coolant leaks (between the sleeve and cylinder) and head gasket problems. Last i talked to him, he didnt want anything to do with them. Arlan did develop his own resleeve kit back in the day. He designed a sleeve and had a company make them for him. This is what Barry Hawk and Bill Ballance used in many of the GNCC races. He had addressed the desigh issues and they were rock solid.
Jimbo, I wouldn't dink around with this cylinder too much more. I have heard of people having good luck with them, but I an have talked personally with more saying they have had nothing but problems. Anyways, best of luck, I hope you get to ride soon
Best regards
-Jason
Jason, I am having the same thoughts. I am having a head cut to work on this bore size, and if I can get it to seal with a proper gasket, I am leaving it, and riding this summer, and hopefully dumping it. I have a nice '86 cyl with mild porting, that just needs bored from 68 to 69. Next winter I plan on getting that done with a new piston, and I can use the head I am having done now. Either that or buy an ESR 310 kit. Then I can chuck this cyl. You should see how the bottom of the sleeve was left square and not blended, and no chamfer was cut for piston install. You can kinda see it in the pic below. Lol. I only ran it because I got it cheap, and it had a fresh bore and piston.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/20141229_143837_zpsbk6mott1.jpg)
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multi layer gasket is new to me. is there not a 1 piece unit from a cr250 that would work ? sealer is something ive always used, on the one piece gaskets anyways. not to bandaid over any problems but simply because it seals the head like nobodys business
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Had a nice chat with them a few minutes ago. My '86 head is in a box and headed to the post office right now! Thanks!
Dude that's awesome! I glad I was able to help!
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Had a nice chat with them a few minutes ago. My '86 head is in a box and headed to the post office right now! Thanks!
Dude that's awesome! I'm glad I was able to help!
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multi layer gasket is new to me. is there not a 1 piece unit from a cr250 that would work ? sealer is something ive always used, on the one piece gaskets anyways. not to bandaid over any problems but simply because it seals the head like nobodys business
One layer metal head gaskets are not my first choice for cylinders with sleeves. Look for some of my post explaining why.
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i think we would all just as soon avoid sleeved cylinders all together, given the choice. most manufacturers ditched sleeves back in the mid '80s, atleast on the higher performance engines (125,250 etc). even kawi and ktm ran sleeveless cylinders on their 500cc stuff. anyways back to the gasket. personally i havent encountered any problems with the single piece units. maybe ive just been lucky. sleeveless with orings is the way to go. this is well known and why the most modern engines use this type of configuration