TRX250R.ORG
Other ATV\'s => Other ATV's => Topic started by: jcs003 on December 23, 2015, 05:33:00 AM
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Here are the parts:
- 2004 frame
- laegar protrax front end
- trail ported banshee engine by wildcard
- laegar swingarm
- shearer 2 into 1 exhaust
- 2 into 1 intake. possibly using smart carb
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6924_2017-04-18_1698.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6925_2017-04-18_4512.jpg)
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..(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6926_2017-04-18_9529.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6927_2017-04-18_5420.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6928_2017-04-18_8385.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6929_2017-04-18_7974.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6930_2017-04-18_2345.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6931_2017-04-18_9914.jpg)
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Hmm this should be a cool build. Keep us updated
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how does the 2 into 1 exhaust work? i heard most 2 into 1 carb systems arent very effective. is this for fitment reasons or are there benefits? just stock cylinders?
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how does the 2 into 1 exhaust work? i heard most 2 into 1 carb systems arent very effective. is this for fitment reasons or are there benefits? just stock cylinders?
The 2 into 1 exhaust, will create a more torque biased engine. Kim Kuhnle, raced XC on a banshee with 2 into 1 intake and exhaust. He actually won a lot of races but barry hawk typically won every year because the 250r is a much better handling machine.
I don't know too much about how the physics apply to 2 into 1 set-up. maybe jerry can explain.
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Snow mobiles have a 2 into 1 exhaust
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lots of parts on the way. stay tuned.
the biggest hurdle here is probably going to be the intake.
im looking for protrax rebuild components. anywhere else to find parts other than laegar? can't find the old thread with the mcmaster-carr part numbers.
john
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Intake is always the kicker
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here is the engine sat into its future, approximate location.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6977_2017-04-18_7729.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6978_2017-04-18_9184.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_6979_2017-04-18_1100.jpg)
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This is a cool looking critter!
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Some parts arrived.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7024_2017-04-18_9037.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7025_2017-04-18_2082.jpg)
john
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Looking like Christmas
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Hey John....have you seen what Arlen has been up to ?
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11898647_1078556382173435_2689829982455659386_n.jpg?oh=e11147f19be3731301dcf66b69d11a0c&oe=56FBD220
Not one...but two of them!
I think you've started a trend!
:)
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Another pic from his facebook page.....
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11887970_1078556405506766_1818218114130717092_n.jpg?oh=acfec1ff208a9623f7a9974eaa192077&oe=5747DD4E
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Hey John....have you seen what Arlen has been up to ?
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11898647_1078556382173435_2689829982455659386_n.jpg?oh=e11147f19be3731301dcf66b69d11a0c&oe=56FBD220
Not one...but two of them!
I think you've started a trend!
:)
Langbolt, I wish I could do the pipework Arlen does. But i am after the benefits of a 2 into 1 set up. Still waiting on the pipe by the way.
John
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Back in the 90's Motofast made two into one intakes & pipes for the banshee. I seen a couple of them at the dunes with these setup's years ago. Sounded very unique.
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Some updates:
Got the pipe modified. needed to remove 3/8" to clear a couple of things.
I also ordered a swingarm from tyson racing. it will have 04 YFZ geometry with a full pivot tube like on a banshee. I will post pics when it arrives. I should have the motor mounts in very soon.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7106_2017-04-18_5468.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7107_2017-04-18_4629.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7108_2017-04-18_5019.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7109_2017-04-18_5632.jpg)
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I believe the lt250r radiator will work best. I just need to perform a few mods.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7110_2017-04-18_6841.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7111_2017-04-18_4969.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7112_2017-04-18_6025.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7113_2017-04-18_270.jpg)
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This will be a very cool bike.
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Looks like it will be a fun and cool quad.
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Looks like it will be a fun and cool quad.
Yes, imagine a banshee engine in a chassis that works well...
John
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Nice to see you making progress.
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Lt radiator huh? I've read that raptor rads are a close fit also.
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Lt radiator huh? I've read that raptor rads are a close fit also.
Quite possibly using the LT250r rad. I am also considering a custom built.
john
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Why won't the Stock YFZ Radiator work ?
:)
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Moving the rad makes more room for the pipes.
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Why won't the Stock YFZ Radiator work ?
:)
I have a YFZ rad and would need to offset it 1". I am just want to make this as clean as possible. I could be overthinking this. especially because the YFZ rad location is perfect for airflow and CG.
I will take a pic with in its approximate position so i can get feedback.
john
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New swingarm from Tyson racing
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7192_2017-04-18_913.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7193_2017-04-18_3870.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7194_2017-04-18_7538.jpg)
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installed.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7195_2017-04-18_6899.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7196_2017-04-18_1300.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7197_2017-04-18_3868.jpg)
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Cool starting to come together
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Cool starting to come together
yes. time to get the motor mounts finalized. i was throwing around a few different versions. I believe i nailed it down.
john
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some progress. I got the radiator figured out. I will weld on mounts and run the spigots on the opposite side. just a lil cutting and welding. see pics for mock-up.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7359_2017-04-18_6889.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7360_2017-04-18_731.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7361_2017-04-18_5816.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7362_2017-04-18_2699.jpg)
john
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Radiator welded and installed. It just will need a final polish before final assembly.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7462_2017-04-18_6167.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7463_2017-04-18_8146.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7465_2017-04-18_2109.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7466_2017-04-18_6009.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7467_2017-04-18_2399.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7468_2017-04-18_1161.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7469_2017-04-18_2788.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7470_2017-04-18_27.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7471_2017-04-18_7236.jpg)
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front motor mounts in process. I just need to cut the fish mouth and fit into place & weld.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7530_2017-04-18_4622.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7531_2017-04-18_1720.jpg)
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Front motor mounts complete:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7557_2017-04-18_5992.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7558_2017-04-18_4252.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7559_2017-04-18_45.jpg)
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front motor mounts in process. I just need to cut the fish mouth and fit into place & weld.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7530_2017-04-18_8708.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7531_2017-04-18_5218.jpg)
what kind of joints are these?
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These are high thrust load rated heim rod ends. Since the motor is biased left, this will allow easier alignment. I use these on my motion base system with 6, 150 hp electric motors.
Basically this solution saved me a ton of extra fab work.
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These are high thrust load rated heim rod ends. Since the motor is biased left, this will allow easier alignment. I use these on my motion base system with 6, 150 hp electric motors.
Basically this solution saved me a ton of extra fab work.
so are they poly lined? kind of like an isolater bushing?
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so are they poly lined? kind of like an isolater bushing?
yes. they are designed to handle a lateral/compression load, so when the heims are tightened down they wont distort.
john
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yes. they are designed to handle a lateral/compression load, so when the heims are tightened down they wont distort.
john
those are cool! where did you get them? i dont have a use for them but id like to know that there an option if i ever need one
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those are cool! where did you get them? i dont have a use for them but id like to know that there an option if i ever need one
McMaster-Carr.
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getting all the motor mounts fit up and will be finish welding soon.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7645_2017-04-18_570.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7646_2017-04-18_8866.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7647_2017-04-18_8224.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7648_2017-04-18_8418.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7649_2017-04-18_8082.jpg)
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welding in process:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7650_2017-04-18_2918.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7651_2017-04-18_9546.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7652_2017-04-18_9135.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7653_2017-04-18_2900.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7654_2017-04-18_256.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7655_2017-04-18_4466.jpg)
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Looks great John, love these hybrids!
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Looks great John, love these hybrids!
Thanks Troy.
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the front and bottom engine mounts, are you going to gusset or triangulate those?
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the front and bottom engine mounts, are you going to gusset or triangulate those?
I did on one side of the front mounts. The bottom is tied together in the center of the two mounts. I just finished welding it all together. I will post pics soon.
John
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I did on one side of the front mounts. The bottom is tied together in the center of the two mounts. I just finished welding it all together. I will post pics soon.
John
Ok good! Was just checking haha. Progress looks sweet! Makes me want to build one too but I have too many projects as it is
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Ok good! Was just checking haha. Progress looks sweet! Makes me want to build one too but I have too many projects as it is
thanks. i cant wait to ride this thing. i am attempting to get it in under 350 pounds wet.
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What kind of racing are you going to do with it? Or is it just a sweet trail rig?
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What kind of racing are you going to do with it? Or is it just a sweet trail rig?
trail riding and hill climbs.
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here are the finish welded pics. Tig welding takes forever.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7658_2017-04-18_4689.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7659_2017-04-18_6950.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7660_2017-04-18_2202.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7661_2017-04-18_2204.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7663_2017-04-18_6910.jpg)
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and my 1 year old on his first quad:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7664_2017-04-18_1530.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7665_2017-04-18_3562.jpg)
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Fresh PC.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7800_2017-04-18_8908.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7801_2017-04-18_7511.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7802_2017-04-18_7916.jpg)
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Been waiting for an update on this one
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Same here !!!! Nice
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I hope to begin assembly this weekend.
john
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assembly begins. 90% of hardware will be titanium, along with several other parts.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7839_2017-04-18_3657.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7840_2017-04-18_9347.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7841_2017-04-18_6301.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7842_2017-04-18_2239.jpg)
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Oh yea nice!!! Need a good vid of this later ... Kudos ��
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here is a bit of progress.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7888_2017-04-18_6315.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7889_2017-04-18_2069.jpg)
I am not a big fan of the 90* bend for the hose coming from the head, but its only a minor issue.
more to come soon.
john
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This going to be a badass quad
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unpolished chrome parts ;
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7890_2017-04-18_725.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7891_2017-04-18_3085.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7892_2017-04-18_5119.jpg)
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more assembly:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7894_2017-04-18_662.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7895_2017-04-18_8724.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7896_2017-04-18_2033.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7897_2017-04-18_7494.jpg)
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some updates:
custom coil mount with some help from ESR
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7969_2017-04-18_8004.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7970_2017-04-18_9588.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7971_2017-04-18_8153.jpg)
rebuilt protrax
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7972_2017-04-18_559.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7973_2017-04-18_6222.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7974_2017-04-18_9891.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7975_2017-04-18_7396.jpg)
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Looking good John, what are you doing for a silencer?
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Looking good John, what are you doing for a silencer?
it is a shearer silencer that comes with the pipe. I am still contemplating the mount. I had to cut off the mount to have it custom. i might just make a strap.
any suggestions?
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it is a shearer silencer that comes with the pipe. I am still contemplating the mount. I had to cut off the mount to have it custom. i might just make a strap.
any suggestions?
Some aluminum T Bar works great for mounting brackets.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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progess;
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7984_2017-04-18_5028.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7985_2017-04-18_9253.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7986_2017-04-18_5952.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7987_2017-04-18_1098.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7988_2017-04-18_7554.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7989_2017-04-18_8934.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_7990_2017-04-18_7789.jpg)
turned out to be 49" wide.
one issue i am having is i cannot fill the radiator as coolant keeps coming out of the brass tube in the center top of the cylinder head. anyone know about these NOSS machine heads?
John
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current state. the exciter 440 intake and smart carb arrived and the intake was modified for the banshee bolt pattern. I still cannot get the bike to run correctly.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8116_2017-04-18_5105.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8117_2017-04-18_8366.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8118_2017-04-18_4350.jpg)
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(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8119_2017-04-18_2720.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8120_2017-04-18_7463.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8121_2017-04-18_1315.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8122_2017-04-18_4494.jpg)
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current state. the exciter 440 intake and smart carb arrived and the intake was modified for the banshee bolt pattern. I still cannot get the bike to run correctly.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8116_2017-04-18_4400.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8117_2017-04-18_5343.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8118_2017-04-18_8169.jpg)
Get rid of the two into one and the smart carb or do two separate smart carbs John.
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Get rid of the two into one and the smart carb or do two separate smart carbs John.
why?
john
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why?
john
When I had my banshee one side would be leaner or one side would richer with a two into one, and there's guys that have burned down the motors with the singles.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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I have only worked on one Banshee with a two into one exhaust system and countless number of Banshees with the Trinity one carb into two cylinder intake manifolds.
The air flow from these intake manifolds do not fill the reed cage evenly. There is more flow on the outside of the bend than the flow on the inside of the bend. When this happens it hurts power and usually causes the outside corners of the reed petals on the outside of the bend to fail prematurely. Higher flow on the outside of the bend causes the reed petal to start opening first. When one corner of the petal opens first, that corner tends to make contact with the reed block first when that petal closes.
I have done a lot of testing on the racing jet ski engines that used the two into one and 3 into one exhaust systems. With enough cylinder development and twin carb tuning, we could usually get the engines to produce competitive reliable power with the 2 into 1 exhaust. Two into one exhaust system always favored one cylinder over the other. When one cylinder is favored over the other cylinder, the pipe's scavenging and return pulse causes the favored cylinder to produce more power and the favored cylinder's piston always ran hotter.
On the engines that had single carbs and the two into one exhaust systems we usually could not tune both cylinders to produce max power. If you tuned the single carb so the the weak cylinder could produce max power the favored cylinder would not usually survive.
Two into one exhaust systems that I have worked with usually favored the cylinder whose exhaust gases had to turn the least amount at the bend at the junction at the "Y head pipe" and main pipe body.
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Hey John, It looks like your Carb is way to tilted forward.....you need to get the float bowl level so the carb will work properly.....you might be either too lean or too rich with the set up you are currently running.....Maybe find an angled boot ? Did the Exciter have a straight boot ? Maybe another Snowmobile boot may work better ?
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Hey John, It looks like your Carb is way to tilted forward.....you need to get the float bowl level so the carb will work properly.....you might be either too lean or too rich with the set up you are currently running.....Maybe find an angled boot ? Did the Exciter have a straight boot ? Maybe another Snowmobile boot may work better ?
I considered that. I found out why it wasn't running correctly. in the one image, above you can see two small holes in the intake. I forgot to plug them. once I plugged them it idled ok.
with that said, i would like to find a different boot as to make the connection to the airbox boot easier. a custom 3D printed piece might be my only option.
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When I had my banshee one side would be leaner or one side would richer with a two into one, and there's guys that have burned down the motors with the singles.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
I agree, this can happen. I know a big issue is those who were using the trinity piece which is junk. people would also have their engine fail due to using a single carb with a dual exhaust.
the exciter 2 into 1 with a 2 into 1 exhaust has been a proven trail set-up; kim kuhnle ran this set-up for years. it might take some work to dial it in but thats parts of doing something custom.
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Here is the bike idling:
[video]https://youtu.be/gnoWOndAOLg[/video]
let me know what you think.
john
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custom chain slider (prototype):
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8136_2017-04-18_1093.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8137_2017-04-18_3004.jpg)
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looks like a backfire caused this damage:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8147_2017-04-18_5469.jpg)
I believe this was caused from the use of a cheap $13 coil to troubleshoot wiring. any other thoughts?
John
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[MENTION=77]jcs003[/MENTION] any luck on this?
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I made progress. I think the smart carb is the problem. I tried 5 different metering rods and got no real improvement. I tried my 38 a/s off the 250r and it ran better despite the carb set up for a a bigger cylinder. I got a 35 a/s on the way.
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I made progress. I think the smart carb is the problem. I tried 5 different metering rods and got no real improvement. I tried my 38 a/s off the 250r and it ran better despite the carb set up for a a bigger cylinder. I got a 35 a/s on the way.
I'll bet money the Smart Carb was your back fire reed killer John, only way they may work is with two one to each cylinder. If you're running a 2 into 1 how is it a smaller cylinder set up then your R?
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Skeans, it is 2, 175cc cylinders so the carb feeding 250r is jetted fat for the 175. I could be wrong in my logic.
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Skeans, it is 2, 175cc cylinders so the carb feeding 250r is jetted fat for the 175. I could be wrong in my logic.
Each cylinder is 175 but you're feeding two cylinders with one intake so you're feeding 350cc of displacement.
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Well smart carb is sending new metering rods and with the 35 a/s I should be able to work it all out.
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Well smart carb is sending new metering rods and with the 35 a/s I should be able to work it all out.
I finally gave up on mine couldn't keep it in adjustment with the elevation changes between my place and the coast then throw humidity into the your were sol. On the puma they claimed it was the vibrations from the motor that was causing the issues if a carb is so tight on tolerance that light vibrations mess it up why is it in motorsports? Hope it all works out for you John but if it was me I'd ask for a refund and get out and play.
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Skeans that will be my move if the smart carb doesnt workout with the new rods. Corey brought up the tight tolerance thing to me too. Apparently it is a very sensitive carb. I am just tired of fooling with it.
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Banshee mtrs work best one carb per piston
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You should of ordered 2 35A/S carbs. I got a 39pwk feeding my 67mm oem cylinder & your wanting to feed a modified 350 twin with just 35mm?
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Banshees come with 26mm carbs stock. 2 into 1 commonly run 35 or 36mm, which is fine, because as mentioned it is essentially a 175cc motor. That is all that is sucking at any time, unless something has gone terribly wrong.
I would steer clear of running a 2 into 1 carb. I just don't see how they can be effective at feeding both cylinders at high rpm. The fuel charge has to change direction back and forth so fast, how is it going to pull equally through each cylinder? Seems like the fuel (and lube) would hug the inside walls.
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I have a set of 28 mm pwk carbs if I fail. I am still fairly confident I can get everything to work harmoniously. Keep in mind, my goal is for this engine to make its power in the lower rpms
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I believe I discovered my issue. I believe I am getting coolant in the combustion chamber
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I believe I discovered my issue. I believe I am getting coolant in the combustion chamber
John what makes you say this?
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looks like a backfire caused this damage:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8147_2017-04-18_6826.jpg)
I believe this was caused from the use of a cheap $13 coil to troubleshoot wiring. any other thoughts?
John
A misfire from a bad ignition component will not usually trigger a crankcase explosion but anything that causes the ignition timing to be a mile off can cause a crankcase explosion.
Most of the reeds that I have seen like yours were damaged when the engine was kicked over and a hydraulic lock occurred because the crankcase was full of liquid. The crankcase is often filled with fuel when the petcock is left on overnight and the float valve is bad. Sometimes coolant fills the crankcase when the transfer ports have been ground into the coolant passageway or the rubber plug under the exhaust port is missing or bad.
When the bottom end has been hydrauliced, something has to give. The crank seals will be pushed out of the cases or it caves in the reed petals or breaks the dividers in the reed cage that supports the reed petals.
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Jerry, this makes sense because at one point the crankcase filled with fuel and I needed to flip it on its end and drain it. I hope I didn't blow out anything except the gas and reed valve. I guess if the plugs are damaged, I would have coolant in the transmission oil.
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If the rubber plugs are blown out, it will usually leak coolant from under the base gasket in the front of the cylinder. When it leaks in this area, coolant either leaks down the front of the engine on the outside of the cases or leaks coolant directly into the crankcase where the crankshaft resides.
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Time for a leakdown test I presume
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A crankcase leak down test will not always show a leaking head or base gasket because of the low pressure used. A low pressure leak down test (0 to 10 psi) will show a leak when the gasket has a piece missing or is pushed to the side of the sealing surface. A leaking head gasket will sometimes not show unless the engine is running at wide open throttle where the pressure can be over 1000 psi.
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I got new o-rings, so I should probably just change them.
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After resealing the head I discovered I likely have a bad crank seal. Probably related to the filling of the crankcase with fuel as Jerry stated.
Looks like a rebuild is in order.
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Found out the crank is also shot. Rebuilding the engine now. New hot rods crank is sent out for true and weld.
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new seat cover.
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8510_2017-04-18_4041.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8511_2017-04-18_8802.jpg)
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well, got this thing back together and it has no power. I am thinking the exhaust and/or fueling is the problem. it will start and drive, but has no power. basically refuses to rev. any thoughts?
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well, got this thing back together and it has no power. I am thinking the exhaust and/or fueling is the problem. it will start and drive, but has no power. basically refuses to rev. any thoughts?
Is the no power problem new problem since the rebuild or was the rebuild suppose to fix the no power problem?
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Is the no power problem new problem since the rebuild or was the rebuild suppose to fix the no power problem?
Jerry, it was supposed to fix the no power issue. engine has new piston/rings, crank and all new bearings and seals/gaskets. passes a leak down test and has 135 psi compression. timing is 2 degrees advanced. it has a shearer 2 into 1 exhaust and I have several carb options to choose from.
do you have any suggestions?
Thank you,
John
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Jerry, it was supposed to fix the no power issue. engine has new piston/rings, crank and all new bearings and seals/gaskets. passes a leak down test and has 135 psi compression. timing is 2 degrees advanced. it has a shearer 2 into 1 exhaust and I have several carb options to choose from.
do you have any suggestions?
Thank you,
John
Borrow a set of Toomey T-5 pipes and silencers and see if that helps the problem. My experience with 2 into 1 pipes on engines that have transmissions has been disappointing. The exhaust port timings that makes good power on a Banshee is out of the range where a 2 into 1 design can function optimally. Do not use the Toomey T-6 "Low end" pipes and silencers. I have not been able to make the Toomey T-6 pipes work on any engine package I have tested.
I have had a few customers that say that their 2 into 1 system works good. When I ride their bikes, I am not impressed. My expectations versus what I read in the advertisement of their systems was not met. Advertisements that use terms like " low end" "mid-range" "top end" power are terms used by manufactures whose intent is to portray one shoe size will fit everyone. These terms are vague and have different definitions to every reader and manufacturer.
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Why not use a legit Banshee builder to start with?
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Why not use a legit Banshee builder to start with?
not sure what you mean. the engine was originally built by Brandon of wildcard racing. all i did was put in a new crank, pistons and rings. mat shearer built the pipe.
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not sure what you mean. the engine was originally built by Brandon of wildcard racing. all i did was put in a new crank, pistons and rings. mat shearer built the pipe.
Do you know what type of engine package you have? Does it have stock or ported OEM cylinders? I have a lot of experience with Banshees and have made thousands of dyno runs during the development of different engine packages. Do you have any dyno curves on your engine? Do you have any dyno curves on your engine with different pipes? Do you have any dyno curves with different carbs?........ Some dyno curves could tell me a lot as to what has been done to the ports and head. Are you still running the 1 into 2 carb set up? What does your intake/air filter system look like? Are you running an OEM CDI box or are you running a programmable system?
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Do you know what type of engine package you have? Does it have stock or ported OEM cylinders? I have a lot of experience with Banshees and have made thousands of dyno runs during the development of different engine packages. Do you have any dyno curves on your engine? Do you have any dyno curves on your engine with different pipes? Do you have any dyno curves with different carbs?........ Some dyno curves could tell me a lot as to what has been done to the ports and head. Are you still running the 1 into 2 carb set up? What does your intake/air filter system look like? Are you running an OEM CDI box or are you running a programmable system?
Jerry, it is mildly built trail port; stock cylinders. (I bought the engine used) It was originally set-up with 28mm pwk. it also has OEM ignition. I have no dyno runs of this engine. I am still running the 1 into 2 carb set up. it is a chariot racing head with pump gas domes. the timing is at +2 degrees. the current carb is a 35mm pwk, I had a 38 mm pwk on yesterday.
This afternoon I leaned out the carb a bit and felt a small improvement in power. however, the plugs is still rather wet. I will go out on a limb and say my biggest issues is getting the carb tuned accurately.
I appreciate all your help.
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the intake roughed out:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8558_2017-04-18_5382.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8559_2017-04-18_2458.jpg)
new carb boot, which will take the angle out of the carb:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8560_2017-04-18_357.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8561_2017-04-18_7906.jpg)
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the intake roughed out:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8558_2017-04-18_3260.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8559_2017-04-18_3850.jpg)
new carb boot, which will take the angle out of the carb:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8560_2017-04-18_4129.jpg)(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8561_2017-04-18_5966.jpg)
The foot long small diameter orange intake tube caught my eye. I have not tested that long of an intake on a Banshee but I have done a lot of testing on the 125cc shifter kart engines, 250R Hondas and the 500 single cylinder two strokes that need to run air filters. None of the aforementioned engines would have liked that long small diameter connector between the carb and air filter. On the twin carbed Banshee with the stock air box, the development that I did on the Banshees did not like the air filter flanges that had the 2.5 to 3 inch opening to the air filter. They wanted a large opening from the plenum to the air filter just like what the engineers at Yamaha gave us on the stock Banshee air box.
There is a tuned length on the intake side of the engine just like there are tuned lengths on the exhaust side of the engine. Many guys ruin a good engine package by neglecting to incorporate development and testing to the intake side of the engine.
On a small displacement cylinder like on the Banshee I think that the engine would like to see about 2 to 4 inches of about 2.5" to 2.75" ID tubing and then dump into a larger diameter tube that is at least 4 to 5 inches in diameter all of the way to the air filter. The flange on the air filter should never be smaller than the largest ID of the carb to air filter tube.
An intake system like pictured above will have 2 to 3 resonating systems. Well developed engines will usually have only one resonating system on the intake side of the engine. There is always one primary resonating system from the reed tips to the bellmouth of the carb on any engine. If the distance from the reed to carb bellmouth is too short (where its tuned length is for a RPM that is out of range of the engine), the length of the primary system can be lengthened by adding some length of parallel or shallow angled tubing to the bell mouth side of the carb. The system needs to dump into the atmosphere at this point or an air filter with a lot of surface area. When the space confines of the bike does not allow us to place a large air filter at this dump point, sometimes we can connect the dump point to the air filter with a large diameter connector tube.
Sometimes the large diameter tube that connects the air filter to the dump point of the primary system can still resonate with undesirable effects and can be fooled by strategically placing a Helmholtz resonator to bring the total system into the desired resonating frequency. Helmholtz resonators (the little white plastic tank that is about halfway between the carb and air filter) are used by the stock TRX250R, TRX450R and a large number of intake systems in the automobile industry.
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The foot long small diameter orange intake tube caught my eye. I have not tested that long of an intake on a Banshee but I have done a lot of testing on the 125cc shifter kart engines, 250R Hondas and the 500 single cylinder two strokes that need to run air filters. None of the aforementioned engines would have liked that long small diameter connector between the carb and air filter. On the twin carbed Banshee with the stock air box, the development that I did on the Banshees did not like the air filter flanges that had the 2.5 to 3 inch opening to the air filter. They wanted a large opening from the plenum to the air filter just like what the engineers at Yamaha gave us on the stock Banshee air box.
There is a tuned length on the intake side of the engine just like there are tuned lengths on the exhaust side of the engine. Many guys ruin a good engine package by neglecting to incorporate development and testing to the intake side of the engine.
On a small displacement cylinder like on the Banshee I think that the engine would like to see about 2 to 4 inches of about 2.5" to 2.75" ID tubing and then dump into a larger diameter tube that is at least 4 to 5 inches in diameter all of the way to the air filter. The flange on the air filter should never be smaller than the largest ID of the carb to air filter tube.
An intake system like pictured above will have 2 to 3 resonating systems. Well developed engines will usually have only one resonating system on the intake side of the engine. There is always one primary resonating system from the reed tips to the bellmouth of the carb on any engine. If the distance from the reed to carb bellmouth is too short (where its tuned length is for a RPM that is out of range of the engine), the length of the primary system can be lengthened by adding some length of parallel or shallow angled tubing to the bell mouth side of the carb. The system needs to dump into the atmosphere at this point or an air filter with a lot of surface area. When the space confines of the bike does not allow us to place a large air filter at this dump point, sometimes we can connect the dump point to the air filter with a large diameter connector tube.
Sometimes the large diameter tube that connects the air filter to the dump point of the primary system can still resonate with undesirable effects and can be fooled by strategically placing a Helmholtz resonator to bring the total system into the desired resonating frequency. Helmholtz resonators (the little white plastic tank that is about halfway between the carb and air filter) are used by the stock TRX250R, TRX450R and a large number of intake systems in the automobile industry.
jerry, so what you are saying is; sound waves play an important role in two stroke intakes as it does in the exhaust?
this tube I am using does have a resonating effect as far as it has a small amount of expansion and contacting when the RPMs vary. Increased intake volume and such. does this make sense?
also, the adapter that comes from the airbox tapers down, so it will not stifle the intake airflow. I can get a picture to better show what I am speaking of.
I was considering having a custom intake fabricated, but i don't have the time to design and run the analysis. I used my most basic engineering approach and hope it will work as desired.
what are your thoughts?
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Jerry, Here is the reducer I used:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8563_2017-04-18_9171.jpg)
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Jerry, Here is the reducer I used:
(http://forums.trx250r.org/vbulletin_imports/77_8563_2017-04-18_4361.jpg)
What are the approximate diameters for your reducer?
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What are the approximate diameters for your reducer?
4" ---> 2-1/2". the length of the taper (45*) is, 1-1/2" long.
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That type of flange design will show an improvement on a flow bench over a sharp edge entry, which is a plus on any intake system. Resonance optimization cannot be tested on a flow bench. I think that your system in the picture may have a resonance problem. The late professor Gordon Blair from the Queens University of Northern Ireland devoted over 40 years of his life studying gas dynamics, pressure wave activity, and developing computer models to simulate the gas flow into, thru and out of engines. His graduate students are working around the world using his knowledge to develop engines and further develop engine simulation software.
The intake wave reverses sign when it gets a little past the large diameter of the flange and into the opening of the air filter, not when it reaches the bell mouth of the carburetor where the diameter of connector tube is too small to get a strong sign reversal. My gut tells me that your orange tube is to long and probably wants to resonate a a frequency that would make a 4000 RPM engine happy not a Banshee that is happy in the 7500 to 10,000 RPM range.
The wave activity in the exhaust and intake of an engine is complex and does not always follow basic acoustic wave theory because of the gas dynamics involved. An engine is a system comprised of many small resonating systems that all have to work together. If one of these systems is not cooperating it can have adverse effects on the whole engine. The adverse side effects can be a loss of power, dips and spikes in the power curve, an engine that cannot be tuned, or symptoms of an erratic behaving carburetor.
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That type of flange design will show an improvement on a flow bench over a sharp edge entry, which is a plus on any intake system. Resonance optimization cannot be tested on a flow bench. I think that your system in the picture may have a resonance problem. The late professor Gordon Blair from the Queens University of Northern Ireland devoted over 40 years of his life studying gas dynamics, pressure wave activity, and developing computer models to simulate the gas flow into, thru and out of engines. His graduate students are working around the world using his knowledge to develop engines and further develop engine simulation software.
The intake wave reverses sign when it gets a little past the large diameter of the flange and into the opening of the air filter, not when it reaches the bell mouth of the carburetor where the diameter of connector tube is too small to get a strong sign reversal. My gut tells me that your orange tube is to long and probably wants to resonate a a frequency that would make a 4000 RPM engine happy not a Banshee that is happy in the 7500 to 10,000 RPM range.
The wave activity in the exhaust and intake of an engine is complex and does not always follow basic acoustic wave theory because of the gas dynamics involved. An engine is a system comprised of many small resonating systems that all have to work together. If one of these systems is not cooperating it can have adverse effects on the whole engine. The adverse side effects can be a loss of power, dips and spikes in the power curve, an engine that cannot be tuned, or symptoms of an erratic behaving carburetor.
that is discouraging. do you have any suggestions to improve this?
Thank you for the continued help.
John
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1. Define the problem by a process of elimination. Does this bike run as good as a stock Banshee?
a. Does it have an aftermarket high current stator and flywheel for "big lights"? If if does borrow a stock stator and flywheel and try it.
We have had nothing but problems with the aftermarket flywheels, stators and CDI boxes. Still no power, step B.
b. Eliminate the long orange hose. Can you install the YFZ450 intake hose on that carb and attach an air filter to it for strictly testing purposes? The YFZ 450 intake hose ID may be too small for the first few inches because Yamaha used the intake tube to compliment / extend the length of the carburetor to get the intake tract length right. If the YFZ450 intake hose will not fit or the ID is too small, try to use a clamp on foam filter directly onto the back of the carburetor. (use as large of a filter as space will permit) After eliminating the orange hose run the engine and tune the carb. Did the power improve? if not step c.
c. Remove the 2 into one pipe and install a good set of Banshee pipes. I prefer the Toomey T5 pipes. All the pipes have to do is plug onto the cylinders and can be bailing-wired on so that you can ride it up and down a smooth road for testing or use someones dyno. did the power improve? If not I will continue based upon the engines response to the above changes.
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well, i await a new throttle valve from japan. at its current state the bike is excessively rich, and the new slide is intended to solve this, at one degree. the other degrees of incidence, will likely be resolved via, dyno tuning at Hetrick.
i will run the pod style filter until i can dyno tune. I learned a lot about intake and exhaust signals because of Jerry setting me straight. those pulses mean everything. with that said, my long (orange) intake tube is not out of the question of producing power. more work is needed.
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i finally received the carb and it is rich, extremely rich, however it will not really rev out. i am now believing that john tabata is correct. I just need to admit the old woods set-up from the 90s is very limiting.
my new approach is: 2 carbs and 2 pipes.
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i finally received the carb and it is rich, extremely rich, however it will not really rev out. i am now believing that john tabata is correct. I just need to admit the old woods set-up from the 90s is very limiting.
my new approach is: 2 carbs and 2 pipes.
LMK if you need any help
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putting on the 28mm PWKs here soon. trying to find pipes, so i don't need to do modifications of T5s or something like that.
any suggestions?
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I have a set of pipes coming from mat shearer and this should be complete by spring.