TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Suspension and Chassis => Topic started by: supernutt on May 08, 2016, 11:04:09 PM
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I bought a used set of shocks off of a person. He knew they were for a 250r and they measured up great and fit perfectly. I am having a hard time getting them set up right. It seems the harder I ride, the better they perform. They are works pro series triple rate piggyback front shocks and a works ultra cross rear shock with adjustable compression and rebound. Going across 6" deep ruts slowly like in 2nd gear it feels and looks like the rear tires are not staying in contact with the ground. If I hammer it and keep on the throttle it feels great no issues. Went on the work site and they claim they only want 1/3 of the suspension travel for race sag. So I picked up the back end of the quad completely off the ground, measured it, and then sat on it and got it adjusted to 3 inches of race sag. Now the bottom frame height seems super high to me. I have 9 inches by the foot peg and 9 1/2 where the frame starts to curve up by the front a arms. Just seems high to me. I have adjusted the compression and the rebound all over with no luck in eliminating the rear bouncing off the ground. Any suggestions? Thanks. And if need be, who does a good job with a quick turn around on works shocks? My photo bucket is not cooperating as I have a video of it doing it. I will try later to see if it works.
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(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/bansoutty8/Forum%20pics/th_E09FA746-305F-47D7-86FB-4928D7C6F0AB_zpskh9cwzhm.jpg) (http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/bansoutty8/Forum%20pics/E09FA746-305F-47D7-86FB-4928D7C6F0AB_zpskh9cwzhm.mp4)
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What size tires are you using? I know on my R setup for mx I am 7" by the foot peg and 7 1/2 by the a arm. I just recently had my used Elka shocks rebuilt by SF racing and I'm kicking myself for not sending them in right when I bought them. I was able to view the video and the ruts are so close together that when you're going faster over them the suspension doesn't have the time to rebound quick enough. Me personally I would just send them to get serviced. Unfortunately turn around time will be longer to anyone you send them too because it is race season.
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21" fronts 20" rears. I do not race only trail ride
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For just trail riding and the size tires that you have, your ride height should be around 8" Rear and 8~8.5" in the front. Race sag on quads is set at around ~30%. Your race sag should be about 3".
What you initially observed is correct, quality shocks will work better the faster you go.
As far as the tires no staying in contact with the ground, if that is a problem, the cause would be a result of too slow of a rebound.
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I will loosen up the rear spring when I get a chance the front may be a challenge because I do not have much preload on them at all and they are a pretty high right height. In your personal opinion do you think that the rear tires not staying in contact with the ground is a major problem at these slow speeds? I guess if you think it is normal I can live with it. But I am sure that loosening up the suspension will not help me on these flat landings
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad218/bansoutty8/Forum%20pics/9E571801-9729-4572-9188-1F67FC2F06BA_zps7ueztp1x.png) (http://s937.photobucket.com/user/bansoutty8/media/Forum%20pics/9E571801-9729-4572-9188-1F67FC2F06BA_zps7ueztp1x.png.html)
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It is not normal that the tires wouldn't be contacting the ground over slow speeds during ruts or bumps. Speed up the rebound on the rear shocks and test again. See if you notice an improvement. As long as the rear shock is not trying to buck you over the handle bars, then the rebound is not too fast. Give it a shot and see if there is improvement.
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Every shock I have purchased used has never been what the seller claimed they were set up for. They swore up and down that they were set up correctly, but sadly they were not.
Does the compressed length of the shock match the length when you quad is sitting on 2x4 minus shocks?
Does the extended length of the shock match the extendend length of frame?
Is the valving/spring/crossovers set up for your weight, riding style (trails/mx) and skill level?
Without making sure those are correct, you will never take full advantage of the suspension. I have run "used" suspension and it was ok, but once I send the shocks out for the correct stuff I mentioned they were awesome. I may need to change compression a click or two or rebound, depending on the track but overall the shocks work like I thought they should.
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I did definitely consider the possibility that the shocks may not be set up for me. I just want to make them as good as I can and then see if it would be worthwhile to me to send them out to have them redone. I may have come across the problem I checkEd the nitrogen in the shocks yesterday the front have 30 psi in them in the rear has absolutely nothing. I have plenty of nitrogen at work so I am going to fill them back up and try them again I'm assuming works wants 250 psi in them?
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That would definitely cause a problem if they don't have enough nitrogen in them. Shock brands call for different amounts of nitrogen. I would call Works and see what they recommend.
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Where did the nitrogen go? leak could be anywhere, hopefully a hose.
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Where did the nitrogen go? leak could be anywhere, hopefully a hose.
Yep. As Lasher said, the nitrogen had to have leaked out from somewhere. You will need to find it or get the shocks serviced and replace all the seals.
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I have no idea how old these shocks are. I assume that it will leak out over time. So if these are 10 years old and never serviced, I would not expect them to be charged up. Goal is to see how well I can get them to work and then have them gone through with an idea of any changes that need to be made. I loosened up the springs after I took them off so I can move the shock shaft without the spring. The rear shock shaft just stays compressed and is VERY hard to pull back out. Compression seems ok and the adjuster makes a difference. The fronts rebound a little but but not much. Going to do the same test tomorrow after I charge them up.
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Reservoirs can be a bladder or piston type . the piston type can leak nitrogen to the oil side and if the shaft seal leaks ,that would be were your pressure loss came from . the bladder type can lose pressure from seal leakage also , but the oil and nitrogen doesnt get mixed unless it ruptures . The correct springs for any rider would be ones that would sit at desired ride height with out excessive preloading . Hondas directions on ride height is 1/3 of travel in sag with with rider fully geared up . One issue with adding nitrogen to a piston style is you dont know were the depth of the floating piston is and it could be bottomed out .
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I talked to a couple shock guys and they both claim that these used the bladder style. But without seeing them, they are only guessing. As long as I don't destroy anything or hurt the shocks more than they already are, if I can get them to perform close to my expectations, I will be happy. Even if it is only for a couple days before everything leaks out again. At least I would know then that they would be worth it to me to have rebuilt.
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I have no idea how old these shocks are. I assume that it will leak out over time. So if these are 10 years old and never serviced, I would not expect them to be charged up. Goal is to see how well I can get them to work and then have them gone through with an idea of any changes that need to be made. I loosened up the springs after I took them off so I can move the shock shaft without the spring. The rear shock shaft just stays compressed and is VERY hard to pull back out. Compression seems ok and the adjuster makes a difference. The fronts rebound a little but but not much. Going to do the same test tomorrow after I charge them up.
the shaft not returning would be normal for a shock with no nitrogen and being stiffer on returning would be normal also , the rebound dampening is far greater than compression .
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the shaft not returning would be normal for a shock with no nitrogen and being stiffer on returning would be normal also , the rebound dampening is far greater than compression .
^^^^^ I concur.
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I believe I misspoke earlier in this post and, therefore, edited the information. It has been quite a while since I researched this information and spoke with Andy @ Maul Tech about these things. With that said, I edited my prior information about race sag. Race sag should be around 30%, or for our R's, about 3inches.If your ride height is correct, then your race sag should correlate with it as well if you have the correct ext. length shock and correct spring. You want both to be close.
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charged up the shocks and took the quad for a spin. The front shocks seemed to respond well. I can adjust the compression and rebound and feel the difference just pushing down on the front bumper. Now the rear shock still does not respond to compression or rebound adjustments. So it is definitely time for a service on that one. Is there anyone that is SUPER good with works shocks that could do a complete rebuild and re-valve and probably different springs also? They just feel kind of still and I am 250lbs so I am not used to that at all. But to their credit, I took my laeger out today in the same field and I could get the rear tires to loose traction occasionally but not very often.
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SFracing
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You have several options: there's our site sponsor, Schmidty Racing, which I have heard does really good work out, out of California.
Or if you want to send them somewhere a little closer to home there is Drew Cox @ Maul Tech ATV, or Ian @ Monster Performance out of New York. Not sure where SF Racing is.
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I just got my shocks back from Monster and WOW this is the best they have performed the entire time I have owned them. I recommend following the maul tech videos to get the proper measurements and supply those measurements to whom ever you decide to go with. Any of the builders mentioned can take care of you but I would talk to them first on the phone and explain what the quad is doing and have your measurements handy to fill them in. I've spoke to all mentioned and they all have great communication skills. I believe Seth is attending some nationals and you may be able to meet up with him if you will be attending or its close to you.
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Ian @ Monster did my snowmobile shocks and they were a huge difference!! Great customer service/communication from him also
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I have talked to a few people about them and some don't want anything to do with works shocks. I left a message with Schmitty and he hasn't called me back yet. I will check out Maul Tech and Monster performance also. Thanks for the suggestions. I played with it a little more today in the shop and the rear shock is adjusting. It comes back out much slower with the rebound slowed down. And pushes down harder with the compression cranked up. So it is working but still seems stiff and I am not used to that because I am 250lbs.