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Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: seth on September 14, 2016, 12:58:06 AM
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Been thinking about switching to ATF. Just curios which ATF do you guys run? Dexron ii,iii,IV? Or does it really matter?
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I run type F. Here's a thread with some good info: http://trx250r.org/threads/571-Changing-to-different-trans-oil-type-question?highlight=tranny+fluid
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I'm cheap and run 15w40 out of my 55 gallon drum with no problems plus I've always got a few gallons in the truck so I can change after rides. The main take away should be something cheap enough you can change it after every ride.
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I've been running rottella in mine but ATF is a couple bucks cheaper by the gallon here.
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I'm cheap and run 15w40 out of my 55 gallon drum with no problems plus I've always got a few gallons in the truck so I can change after rides. The main take away should be something cheap enough you can change it after every ride.
how do your clutch plates hold up when not using wet clutch fluid? i remember doing that when i was a teenager and not knowing any better, only made it a couple hours and my weekend was shot they were slipping so bad i had to get towed back to the truck.
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how do your clutch plates hold up when not using wet clutch fluid? i remember doing that when i was a teenager and not knowing any better, only made it a couple hours and my weekend was shot they were slipping so bad i had to get towed back to the truck.
So far so good Jesse, but I'm running a lock out in the puma and the sphinx never slipped.
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I use rotella T it's supposed to meet the wet clutch requirements
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Rotella_T
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X3 on the rotella. Just gotta be sure it isn't synthetic. I've even used delo 400 15-40. It's been my experience that atf will foam up in gear boxes. We have tried using Dex 3 in a few gear boxes at the power plant. It does work great in air compressors though.
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why would you not want to use what honda recommends? i know theres plenty of people that have run atf and theres tons of different opinions but why would anyone want to deviate from what the engineers specked for their design?
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ive been using rotella 15w40 since the late 90s in all my atvs and motorcycles have never had an oil related malfunction since i switched. that said when i worked as an atv /dirt bike mechanic at a local dealer i learned a very inportant thing about factory spec oils the oems (honda/yamaha and even harley) use the absolute cheapest supplier that can meet their specs for the oil they put there name on and they change suppliers almost with the seasons. i have always heard and told others to find an oil that works for you and stick with it. just as an example i have over 4500 miles on an `09 rzr, 12000+miles on a vstar 1300, 400ex stroker i built in `03 stil lrunning strong with hardly any compression lossand still running original clutch plates, `04 scrambler 500 unknown hours. and numerous other atvs, dirtbikes and streetbikes all on rotella 15w40 without 1 single issue or problem and my stuff dosent sit it gets rode and rode hard the 400ex is on its 5th or sixth set of rear tires and i run them till there down to 15-20% tread. the only thing i ever noticed is on the RC51 i had a few years ago was the temp on mine ran slightly higher than my cousins and he used castrol activo but mine shifted smoother than his and never heard any valvetrain noise on mine but his would have a more pronounced chatter at idle. long story short find what your comfortable with using and change it often.
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Change it often.
Summed up in three words. ^^
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Summed up in three words. ^^
this is the same statement said with EVERYONE that uses atf. change it often. i ran it in my banshee a few times. one ride and the fluid would turn brown and was very very thinned out. atf is pretty thin as it is but it was almost like water. id be willing to bet you could run ANY oil if you changed it after every few hours of riding so to say that atf is a "proper" oil to run is pretty far fetched. i know this is one of those topics that can be argued to the end of time but to say to use atf but you have to change it often, well in my opinion those to statements contradict one another. if its a proper oil to run then why doesnt honda sat to use it? and why would you have to change it after every few hours of riding? this is my opinion and im not trying to bash anyone so please dont take it that way. im just trying to look at the facts and come up with a logical outcome. i could put any oil in there and change it often and im sure it would last another 30 years so if you want to look at it that way then its the proper oil to use but im sure theres zero benefit to running atf over wet clutch compatible motor cycle oil that honds specs. all its going to do is cost you more money because your changing it often. thats my outlook on the situation.
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im sure theres zero benefit to running atf over wet clutch compatible motor cycle oil that honds specs.
One thing to think about is that Honda engineers also spec a 20:1 fuel mix. I don't know anyone that follows that spec. Besides, atf is made for wet clutches.
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One thing to think about is that Honda engineers also spec a 20:1 fuel mix. I don't know anyone that follows that spec. Besides, atf is made for wet clutches.
This is true, but new oil technology allows for the same protection with a lower ratio of oil to gas. The oil in the trans is not the same as the 2 stroke oil you burn. There is a fixed amount of oil in the trans that's needed to reach all the gears thst need the protection and with the lower pre mix ratios were still using 2 stroke oil, were just allowed to use less due to the advance technology that just wasn't there 30 years ago. Trans fluid is trams fluid and wet clutch compatible engine oil is NOT atf. Like putting oranges in apple pie and expecting it to taste like apple pie lol
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Have you ever seen the inside of a automatic tranny? A lot of bearings gears and clutch plates. If it's good enough for protecting those, should be good for the little 250R. I personally don't use ATF. I like the Honda Red Bottle. Too many people having good success with ATF. Including Uncle Neil.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/Random%20Pics/1109chp-03-o-picking-the-right-automatic-transmissiongears.jpg)
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Yes I've been inside a auto trans. Quite familiar with it. All I'm stating is I don't believe there's any benefit to running atf. All its doing is costing more cause you have to replace it all the time. I do use it here and there to clean out my trans. I blast it around the yard a few times then drain it and put regular oil in it
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Ams oil 0-40 atv oil for me, atf doesn't last long enough for wet cluthes imo. It is a good flushing oil though, has a lot of detergents that will clean the system well.
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Yes I've been inside a auto trans. Quite familiar with it. All I'm stating is I don't believe there's any benefit to running atf. All its doing is costing more cause you have to replace it all the time. I do use it here and there to clean out my trans. I blast it around the yard a few times then drain it and put regular oil in it
With the price of an engine oil anymore are you really spending more when a quart is around a dollar?
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With the price of an engine oil anymore are you really spending more when a quart is around a dollar?
$1!? Where are you buying your oil from? The dollar store? I don't know of any wet clutch engine oil that's anywhere near that price.
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$1!? Where are you buying your oil from? The dollar store? I don't know of any wet clutch engine oil that's anywhere near that price.
I buy everything by the 55 gallon drum or bigger bulk.
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Ah ok. Most people do not buy it that way so you really can't compare a quart at $1 for most people
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Redline trans oil for my bikes. Thicker style oil designed to take some of the shock off gears so excellent film strength between gears. I'm not so concerned with clutch life you can get new replacement clutch plates pretty cheap. I worry more about film strength on our 30 plus year old tranny's I would pick the 15-40 over ATF
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Ive been running RotellaT in my sportbikes for 10 yrs, and been happy with it, but cant run anything thick or heavy in my R or it feels like the clutch slips... its always been that way. I just change often
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Another member here all about the red bottle!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/bigmike11554/Mobile%20Uploads/0EDB6315-6A16-4931-80F3-5574882FE2BF_1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigmike11554/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0EDB6315-6A16-4931-80F3-5574882FE2BF_1.jpg.html)
I've been running it for as long as I can remember, I run it in my 250R, CR500 and my banshee... And change your oil often! Regardless of what type of oil you run!!
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Transmissions that share the same oil as the transmission have a unique problem. Gear life would be extended if a hypoid type gear oil that had a true viscosity of at least 90wt. Clutch life would be at it's best if the viscosity of the transmission oil was about 1wt. The engineers from the major manufacturers have tested all types of oils and transmission fluids. They have found the types of oils and viscosities that give the best overall clutch and gear life without robbing a lot of power from the viscous oil drag created by the clutch basket churning heavy viscosity oils in the clutch compartment.
Put your engine on a dyno and fill the transmission to the recommended level with the recommended oil. Run the engine on the dyno and record the power and oil temperature. Now overfill the transmission by adding an extra pint. Run the engine on the dyno and record the power and oil temperature. Now overfill the transmission so that it is overfilled by 1 quart. Run the engine and record the power and oil temperature. Now drain the oil completely and fill with SAE 90 wt or 140 wt hypoid gear to the recommended level. Run the engine on the dyno and record the power. Now drain the transmission and fill with ATF or with one of the zero to 5 wt multigrade automotive engine oils. Run the engine on the dyno and record the power and oil temperature.
The summary of your test results will look something like this:
Best power.....had light viscosity oils like zero to 5wt or ATF filled to the recommended oil level
Lowest power......had the highest oil level of the oil recommended by the manufactures and or the 140 wt oil at the recommended oil level.
Lowest oil temperature ..........light viscosity oils like zero to 5wt or ATF at the recommended oil level
Highest oil temperature.........had the highest oil level of the oil recommended by the manufacturers. 2. Next highest oil temperature was the one that was overfilled by 1 pint or had the 140 wt oil and the recommended oil level.
Least clutch slip.........light viscosity oils like zero to 5wt or ATF filled to the recommended oil level
Had the most clutch slip..........140 wt hypoid gear oil and then the test that had the highest oil level of the oil recommended by the manufacturers
A clutch basket running in a high oil level can consume a lot of power. Power is consumed by the unnecessary turbulence and viscous drag created by the basket running in a higher than necessary oil level in the clutch cover. The power loss is converted to heating the transmission oil.
We cannot accurately evaluate which of the light viscosity oils would provide the longest gear life in our short term type of test in the lab. Accurate gear life type test require inspection of a large number of transmissions where the oil type, oil change intervals and severity of service can be well documented . Historically gear life has been extended with higher viscosity type oils or the newer synthetic type of oils where high oil temps are prevalent.
If we look at the above observed trends, I see trends that seems to match up with what most manufactures of two stroke engines with wet clutches recommend. The manufacturers typically recommend a multi-grade light wt oil like 10w30 or 20w40. The engineers have found that the light weight oils reduce clutch slip, minimize power life and give acceptable gear life.
I have used ATF type F in thousands of two stroke race engines over the years without observing accelerated gear ware. I would not recommend ATF in any of the Suzuki off road two stroke engines. I have seen what I consider accelerated gear ware in Suzuki's off road transmissions and I do not believe it is a lubrication related problem. I believe that Suzuki has been cutting corners the last 40 years or so on their gear materials and heat treat in their off road transmissions. I have not see the same metallurgical trends on their sport bike and other street bike transmissions.
For clarity in the above statements: "High oil levels were Oil levels above the manufacturer's recommended oil level.
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Thanks Jerry that is great information.
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That is excellent information thank you Jerry! I read it 3 times just to make sure I understood everything you said correctly!
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Yep, good info, makes total sense and its pretty much my experience with my R. I'm a 10- 40'er in mine and try and keep it fresh