TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: C-Leigh Racing on August 05, 2013, 11:03:05 AM
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Anyone have a junk ESR cylinder, unuseable ?.
Looking for a junk one to do some disecting & cutting on to see if it can be made to cool better.
Thanks, Neil
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Neil.
About a week and 1/2 ago esr posted about some cyl updates. I called them up and asked about it and 2 of the updates were the water jackets and base nut seats. Just so you know what you are thinking about playing with may no longer be the same.
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Did Tom say directly what had been done to the coolant jacket.
Gona take one & do some milling under the exhaust port & up both sides to see if a way to get that coolant to make a pass under & then out the head.
How it is set now if you study it, once the coolant comes in the water neck on the rear of the cylinder, the holes machined into the rear of the head shell, will let to much pass over the head & then out back to the radiator.
Need to somehow route the flow, where it will come around the right side, flow down under the exhaust, back up on left side of exhaust & then out the head back to the radiator.
250R cylinders, OEM, Pro-x, ESR, run hotter on the left front & normally that is where they will seize first or blow the inner o ring. If we can limit that heat build up it can only do good for either of the cylinders.
Neil
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Did Tom say directly what had been done to the coolant jacket.
Neil
Nope, that is all I know. I would think that we will be seeing more about what he said soon.
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(http://fpe-racing.pagesperso-orange.fr/Moteurs_fichiers/Cyl%20FPE1.JPG)
exhaust port is cooled first on this rsa cylinder because it is feed from the bottom of the exhaust area of the cylinder like snowmobile cylinders
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i have a prox 310 i can donate but its not an esr im pretty sure
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i have a prox 310 i can donate but its not an esr im pretty sure
Thanks, needs to be one of the new ESR castings.
Pro-x pretty much been tested & trued over the years, still though you'll run across one has problems.
Only problem on the Pro-x cylinders, is the normal piston design used, cut outs on the sides around the wrist pin area allowing port linking.
Eddie stepped out on a limb & had Wiseco do a new type machined piston to stop the linking, so everybody with a Pro-x jug, that is the piston you need to use.
You'll need to change jetting afterwards though, because that piston dont waste fuel charge like the regular Wiseco big bore pistons.
Neil
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Hi Neil I might just have the cylinder for you if I ever get it back from esr I'd be more then happy to donate to you. Hopefully you could figure out problem and maybe they'd listen. Although I'm sure Eddie and Tom already know of the problem. I'd say you could read all my previous posts on this matter but they were all deleted. I'll keep ya posted. Thanx
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Thanks BJ for the offer.
I think it was like 2011, I talked to Eddie about several things, mostly trying to get him to donate stuff for our ATVA National awards banquet, which he did send quit a bit of stuff. While talking, I mentioned about the port linking ordeal on the Pro-x cylinders & what I had found would cure the problem. Was just a simple machining change, on the Wiseco pistons to stop the linking & then about 3 months time, I see Eddie had those pistons listed for sale.
Several years before that, I had talked to Dave at LA Sleeve, Allen at CT bunches of times to see if they would try & get the machining change on the regular piston used, even before hand & during the time LA Sleeve was doing all the designing & testing for the new German made Wossnor pistons & still they came with the same ol machining.
When you find out something you know will change how a engine performs & no ill side effects from that change, it only makes sense to go for that change to help the customer, but the idea was like falling on deaf ears.
Eddie, took that idea & ran with it & now today we have that new piston kit we can use.
Neil
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Hey Neil,
Quick question on this. Do the Duncan and new CP cylinders also fall in line with the OEM / ESR / Pro-X cylinders as you listed, or were there changes to these cylinders that sets them apart?
Just curious
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Neil i have one of the very first esr cylinders sold in jan 09. My counterbalancer bearing let loose and broke the sleeve and crank at the 30 hour mark. Ouch! Been sitting on shelf ever since. You can have it
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Neil i have one of the very first esr cylinders sold in jan 09. My counterbalancer bearing let loose and broke the sleeve and crank at the 30 hour mark. Ouch! Been sitting on shelf ever since. You can have it
Hey, sounds good, just let me know the shipping charge & give me an address to mail it to.
I'll PM mine.
Thanks, Neil
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Hey Neil,
Quick question on this. Do the Duncan and new CP cylinders also fall in line with the OEM / ESR / Pro-X cylinders as you listed, or were there changes to these cylinders that sets them apart?
Just curious
I cant say, cause I've never owned a Duncan cylinder set up, only been close to riders owned them & worked on them, so found out what I know about those from them.
The CPI cylinders, I would say would have to be the cream of the crop for a TRX engine, but you have to have a understanding of how that all came about.
CPI did the Pro-x cylinder castings for years, went through just about the same failure things as the new ESR cylinder going through & over time & changing of the castings was able to end those problems on the Pro-x.
Just about all of us know, that the early ESR cylinders used years ago were Pro-x brand, cast by CPI & were just as good a quality as the Pro-x cylinders sold by LA Sleeve, CT Racing today. Others like Sparks, LRD & some others offered those same Pro-x cylinder castings as well.
Quite a few years back, I was told by LA Sleeve that the Pro-x cylinder castings did not come from CPI anymore, no way to prove that other than it came from a creditable mouth I heard it from, but anyways if they are not, who evers doing them, they have the casting perfectly the same as the CPI castings. I questioned CPI about that directly & never got an answer.
We all know, if your producing a product for the first time, you'll be going through trial & error until you get it right & as that product goes through its growing stage it will end up perfected. Well with that being said, there will come a time, that the product being produced just kinda stops going any higher & maintains at the level it is at, so is where the Pro-x cylinders are at today.
It has been said as well, theres always somebody, somewhere can build a better mouse trap than you can, so is where the CPI cylinders come in. When you've had all those years of practice casting Pro-x cylinder & know how it worked & what would & could have made them better, but nobodys wanting it to go any higher, then theres nothing left but to come out with your own version.
So with the CPI cylinders what do you have, the best that can be produced because you know what works & what didnt.
Next thing, is to compare prices from one cylinder kit to the others & see where that puts you. I just know a CPI wont be in my budget, not unless I win the lotto or I get some big sponsors.
Neil
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Neil, what's your thought on reducing the flow of coolant, to the intake side of the head? Duplicating the design of the factory gasket.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/IMG_1982.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/IMG_1982.jpg.html)
ESR did reduce that side, slightly. Maybe a little more is needed.
(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/58dc51be-c31d-489e-a6a7-07874f8993fa.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/58dc51be-c31d-489e-a6a7-07874f8993fa.jpg.html)
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IMO even CPI cylinders could do the water flow differantly, on my Liger cylinder I have changed it so all the flow dumping into the cylinder right where a flat spot is machined over the exhaust port.
I would like to see this on the pumas/sphynx cylinders but since nobody seams to be having issues not much interest is out there to try it.
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That is a good idea, because if those large holes in the head were closed up quite a bit, more of the coolant flow would be directed to the front of the casting instead of over top of the head dome.
Would need to study & see what could be used to close up those holes. Dont know if JB Weld would hold up under the hot coolant, maybe something like Devcon or Lab-Metal ??. Once closed up, could drill in the smaller hole to restrict flow in that area.
Looking at the head pic as it sits, I would probably leave the coolant opening over top of the exhaust port as it is, but the one to the right, which would be the left front of the cylinder & head once bolted on, would open it up a bit more to cool that area of the cylinder more.
Neil
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I talked to a tech at JB Weld, they said the regular JB would perform well with the heat and coolant properties. I do have some Devcon, very nice product.
So you would only enlarge the left side of the head, not the right too?
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I talked to a tech at JB Weld, they said the regular JB would perform well with the heat and coolant properties. I do have some Devcon, very nice product.
So you would only enlarge the left side of the head, not the right too?
Looking down on the head when mounted, right side of the cylinders run just a bit cooler than the left side. I'm figuring from how the intake flow is directed, at an angle to the right side, the charge is wadded up on that side so the engine will run richer on the right & then leaner on the left.
Most every time an o ring blows, it will be on that left front side, so heats got to be higher in that area.
Neil
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(http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/RideRed187/250R%20Pics%20Parts/58dc51be-c31d-489e-a6a7-07874f8993fa.jpg) (http://s532.photobucket.com/user/RideRed187/media/250R%20Pics%20Parts/58dc51be-c31d-489e-a6a7-07874f8993fa.jpg.html)
I cut ob-round slots 1/8 thick aluminum with the holes to match stock gasket on my Polonda. Epoxied them in because we were using o-rings with no gasket provision. Worked great but it is alot of time consuming work.