TRX250R.ORG
Workshop => Engine and Bottom End => Topic started by: Banshee330 on March 16, 2021, 08:26:26 PM
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Well I finally had some time today to work on the motor. Cleaned a few gaskets . I got the 2 bearings out of the case the you can’t press or knock out. Just asking how do you guys normally get the bearings out of the case.
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Heat or bread crumbs and a punch or blind hole bearing puller
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You can put the case halves face down in the oven at 200°F until you hear the bearings drop out.
Loren
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I picked up an old nasty used oven for free about 5 years ago for doing exactly what Loren described. It's also handy to have a shop oven for curing painted or powder coated parts.
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Any recommendations or tips and tricks on removing the counter balance gear and bearing, any advice would be appreciated.
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So you have to get a very clear accurate scribe line on the counter balance gear or you will cause a big vibration issue. I have rebuilt a couple with success so it can be done. I use a center head for my combination square to scribe a line down the center of the gear and end of the shaft. Then I rotate the counter balance 45° and scribe a line from the edge of the gear to the center of the first line. That gives me three lines to get the gear on correctly. The line at 45° also prevents you from getting the gear 180° out. I set the counter balance up in my press and then warm the gear with a small propane torch and gently press it out. Once warm it pretty much drops off. The bearing is pretty much a slip fit so it should come right off. Then I let everything cool to room temperature. I put the counter balance in the freezer overnight. Gently clamp the counter balance in the vise using cardboard or rags as softeners. Heat the gear to 200°f and drop it on. You will have about 10 seconds to get it timed correctly so don't waste time. If its off just give it a twist to line it up.
Loren
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(https://thumbs2.imagebam.com/5d/5f/b9/96d5691372564148.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/96d5691372564148) (https://thumbs2.imagebam.com/09/74/02/04c8ff1372564154.jpg) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/04c8ff1372564154)
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Great information Loren, thanks!
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So you have to get a very clear accurate scribe line on the counter balance gear or you will cause a big vibration issue. I have rebuilt a couple with success so it can be done. I use a center head for my combination square to scribe a line down the center of the gear and end of the shaft. Then I rotate the counter balance 45° and scribe a line from the edge of the gear to the center of the first line. That gives me three lines to get the gear on correctly. The line at 45° also prevents you from getting the gear 180° out. I set the counter balance up in my press and then warm the gear with a small propane torch and gently press it out. Once warm it pretty much drops off. The bearing is pretty much a slip fit so it should come right off. Then I let everything cool to room temperature. I put the counter balance in the freezer overnight. Gently clamp the counter balance in the vise using cardboard or rags as softeners. Heat the gear to 200°f and drop it on. You will have about 10 seconds to get it timed correctly so don't waste time. If its off just give it a twist to line it up.
Loren
You attempted this without the special Honda jig that was purchased directly from Honda & only available for use in Rancho Cucamonga California?
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Yup
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Yup
Good man!
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Used this little jewel to remove the tiny clutch shaft bearings! Son asked last night, dad how comfortable are you building this motor, I said not sure never built one before.
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Having a hard time finding this little spherical roller thrust bearing on or near the clutch. Any ideas where I can find this bearing?
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Rockymountainatvmc.com has them. Go to the oem section and run through the drop downs. Select 1989 trx250r, then select the clutch parts schematic. It's #24 part #91001-147-003.
Loren
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Don't worry too much about "knowing how" to build a 2stroke engine. I didn't know how until I did it. I'm not afraid to take apart any engine. You have to be very methodical and organized. When you take something apart it's good practice to label things and to lay them out on your bench in the order they came out. Take lots of pictures and by all means ask this group anything! No matter how stupid you might think the question is, we have all probably asked it when we were learning.
Good luck with the build and most of all have fun!
Loren
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Thanks , I checked Ronnie’s mail order under 1987, it showed the part but it skipped it on the available parts list. Done the same thing on Rocky Mountain. Then checked 1989 and it showed up 🤔. I know the motor serial number has 87 at the end. I just bought a lot of parts hope I am buying the right ones. Does any one know if this bearing is used on 87?
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that bearing is part of the 89 update. 87 didnt have it. if you are doing a full clutch rebuild may i suggest a Neil clutch mod. Since you will be ordering parts you might as well order a few more to have a great operating clutch
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89 was the only year that the clutch had the thrust washer. The 89 clutch will work in 85-89 engines if you have all the parts.
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The actuator arm upper bearing is discontinued from Honda. Here’s the info for a replacement:
https://www.forums.trx250r.org/index.php/topic,8405.msg74925.html#msg74925
Joe
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Thanks guys for all the information, the actuator arm bearing came with the bottom end bearing kit. The Neil clutch mod will be doable researching it. The counter balance gear was scribed, pressed off fairly easy. Installed new bearing put shaft in freezer and heated gear in a rod box. Mic’ed the bore and the shaft, got about .001” clearance and tried to install. I stuck it twice today. Will try again tomorrow. Cleaned cylinder up with a ball hone, hand some rust spots. Got lots of parts coming in, but still need to order more.
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Purchased kicker shaft off eBay, doesn’t look like shaft from motor. Seller said it was shaft for 86-87 TRX 250r. Has good splines not sure if it will work. Longer shaft removed from motor, shorter shaft purchased off eBay.
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The shaft on the left is for 88-89, that mates with the wider gear and the thicker clutch cover.
The shaft on the right is for the thinner gear + the collar, and the deeper cut clutch cover which is for 85-87
Unfortunately the online parts diagrams don't visually show the detail for the 88-89 shaft and gear
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I am guessing that alot of these parts interchange between cases? Is it safe to say that the serial number on the motor has 87 in the end is a 1987 motor, but other components will work? So if I use the shaft on the right I will have to change other components ? Gears, clutch covers, collars? Gonna get a manual this week.
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I would say if you're just replacing that shaft because of the splines being worn, just get the correct shaft.
After 30 years many motors have different year variations of parts in them.
To answer your question, if you want to use the shaft on the right that you just bought, you would need to change the clutch cover, gears, collars, and thrust washers to complete the 85-87 parts package.
A few areas off the top of my head that this can happen is the transmission gearing 5-6, kicker assemblies, shaft,gear, and cover, cranks/pistons,
water pump shaft/impellers, and clutch rods/ bearings/and pressure plates.
They will interchange through the years, only if you use all the matching parts that coincide with that group of parts. This would make a great post to the tech section if there isn't one already.
I cant say if the Honda manual shows these differences or not.
You can year class those kicker shafts visually by the length of the area that the gear rides on them= Just below the snap ring in your pictures.
Left in your pic with the longer bearing surface below the snap ring 87-88
Right side in your pic with the shorter bearing surface below the snap ring 85-87
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Getting there, buying parts and checking stuff!
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Looks like a Starrett mic. You & me are at about the same place in our engine builds, only difference being I started mine last August.lol... I work very slow.
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I checked the cylinder bore today, it was 2.657 and the piston was 2.654, piston end gap was .014” and .016”. Reading the manual, I guess it’s been bored.060 over? So what cc is that equivalent too? Like 265? Everything seems to be ok. Checked transmission shafts and bushings seems all in tolerances. There is a lot of stuff to check!
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Stock 66mm is 2.598" so you are at 2.657 which is 67.49mm. That brings you to 258cc. To get a 265cc you need a 68.5mm bore at the stock 72mm stroke. 1mm is .03937"
Loren
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Hi guys, getting close to getting the motor together. I am not sure if I am missing a part
Or not on my build. The kicker spindle’s shown above I am going to try
The one that came out of the quad. Left spindle. Is there another collar that goes on the spindle shaft? Or is there a collar that is in the clutch cover. On parts schematic it shows item 9 spacer collar. I can’t seem to find this part unless it looks like it may be in the clutch cover? Any suggestions?
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That #9 collar is used on the earlier 85-87 shafts.
They use the same picture for the 88-89 setup which is what you are trying to use. You will notice that its not listed under the part numbers necessary on the 88-89 schematic, but shown in the pic.
Your cover should have that space taken up partially by the thicker cover, and the thicker gear.
So no spacer needed on yours
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Thanks! Good morning guys, Check these gears. They look awful close to me. Just wondering if this is normal. I do feel as if I put it together correctly. I also installed a weisco basket. After installing the gear and grommets, torqued the thin plate in the back it felt as if their was a slight amount of play or looseness between the gear and basket, does this seem normal.
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Thanks! Good morning guys, Check these gears. They look awful close to me. Just wondering if this is normal. I do feel as if I put it together correctly. I also installed a weisco basket. After installing the gear and grommets, torqued the thin plate in the back it felt as if their was a slight amount of play or looseness between the gear and basket, does this seem normal.
That looks too close
Joe
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More like it should be shown. The damage on the basket outside edge in this pic is not normal. The gear needs relieved if using a thick primary gear with a Hinson basket.
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Steve, does your clutch bushing look like this?
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Or does it have the early clutch bushing items? If using the old style are all the components there?
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I’ll take a look today when I get home. That gear picture, is the transmission.this picture is the clutch gear, only one I have . I am still waiting on clutch parts. I am pretty sure that spacer with the two needle bearings looks like the picture you have. I think I am sure when I put the basket on , there was clearance. After I pulled the right case down with the crank puller, installed the transmission gears the top one looked awful close to the second gear on the other shaft, so I took a picture of it.
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I’ll take a look today when I get home. That gear picture, is the transmission.this picture is the clutch gear, only one I have . I am still waiting on clutch parts. I am pretty sure that spacer with the two needle bearings looks like the picture you have.
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Oops sorry. That what I get for not putting on my glasses lol.
Joe
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As far as the transmission gears, I flipped that larger gear and it had clearance. But I don’t think it was right, looking at videos and in the manual, so I flipped it back, but the clearance just looked really tight
to me.
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Can’t figure out where this washer goes? It’s 21mmx12mmx2mm thick.
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That almost looks like the washer that goes under the flywheel nut.
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I believe that you are correct Kevin. That definitely looks like the flywheel washer
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Thanks guys, waiting on parts and trying to get back
Into the build is challenging. Found a bag with this in it , and was hoping it didn’t go in the engine somewhere. Seems to fit good on the old crank .
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I installed the basket, inner hub and torqued. Installed the clutch arm, the bottom of shaft somewhat stopped at the bottom bearing. It wouldn’t go? I pulled shaft out and polished a little and it went down to bottom bearing and it took a slight palm force push to get it to go. With it down it is somewhat hard to turn without the spring in the correct position. Almost like it feels like it is sticking. With the spring in place it sticks when I simulate the direction the clutch will pull it. Does this sound normal like it’s suppose to have some pre load on it or should it be free. I would think when I push the arm the spring would cause it to return to it’s renamed position , but it’s not doing that. Any suggestions?
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If you have the clutch assembled with the springs and the push rod in place you should feel a ton of resistance. If you don't have athe clutch assembled you should be able to rotate the clutch actuator by hand.
Did you lube the clutch actuator bearing before you installed the clutch actuator? Is it possible that something is down in the hole?
Loren
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I blew the hole out several times, nothing was installed and it would not turn freely. Even pushing the clutch arm down in the hole without the spring and washer. When I installed both bearings I put a little bit of moly on the bearings, I have been dipping the clutch arm shaft in transmission oil and trying to work out all this sticking. I did put it together with the rod and thrust bearing and pressure plate. Not a ton of resistance. I had to turn the clutch arm a ton just to get the push rod to move. I only have one thrust bearing washer behind the pressure plate. Just seems the more I polish the clutch arm the better it gets. Wonder if it is bent. Couldn’t find a shaft diameter in the manual for it. Any body know what it’s suppose to be, or if they are different between years?
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Been searching schematics for an extra thrust washer, found a thread with this part number 90608-072-000. Doesn’t seem to work. Anybody know of another part number for the extra washer?
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Thats the right number for the pressure plate thrust washer. 1 is what is in there stock.
This was a long time ago, but Tony = Pumashine here was going to cut some these washers at various thicknesses to dial in the free play a little tighter.
That clutch arm should rotate pretty smoothly. Maybe the bearings got seated a little too firmly?
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I hope I didn’t seat them to much, my son took a video of the bottom bearing because I can’t see it in the hole. It looked good to me. No rolled over edge and I could see every roller in between the cage. I very well could have brinelled the bearing during installation. I made these tools to press the bearings against the tight ring in the fit, which is the outter race. I used a rubber mallet and froze the needle bearings. I wish I had some small v blocks and a dial indicator to check the clutch arm run out. I think it is bent but I can’t see it with the naked eye. I found a washer on at a eBay store along with a new clutch arm. So I am gonna have to wait a little longer to finish this motor. When you actuate the clutch arm I wasn’t getting any pressure plate movement, it seems when I polish the clutch arm more it’s only sticking in the position that it is meant to be in. Every where else it moves freely.
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Steve, does your clutch bushing look like this?
yes mine looks like this for sure.
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Those are some really nice installation tools you made there. That should have kept them from deforming pretty well.
If its not too late I have a few of those washers nip for just in case here, and could throw one in the mail for you for free if you still need one.
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That would be cool! I got a washer coming. It said same washer that is sold in the clutch lifter kit. I think it’s made by BDT. I didn’t opt for the extended clutch arm I didn’t want to have to do any modifications to the cylinder. I just hope I bought the right one. If you could spare one I would surely take it, if I don’t use it I will send it back. If you need to borrow these bearing installation tools I could send them to you! Thanks
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That would be no problem, it should get there with just a stamp. I have three spares so no trouble at all.
I thought I bought a set of the assorted washers from Tony years ago, but I can’t find them.
I appreciate the tool rental also, lol.
I’ll send it off tomorrow
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Well guys I got the motor together, hope I did it right. On to the next step. Gonna replace that intake boot, rubber has got dry rotted.
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Nice. Looks like you did a great job on your first R motor
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Awesome !!! Thats the perfect time to do a pressure check for peace of mind, and avoiding trouble and headaches after its installed.
Just in case you're not familiar with that you can go to the Duncan racing website and go to the tech center, then technical documents,
two stroke, then two stroke pressure test. ( wish I had a direct link for you)
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Hey guys! Does this rubber ring go half way up this strainer? Like where the old one is?
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Pic:
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Awesome, thanks
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Hi guys! Any recommendations on buying a new cdi or this other little box, all the wires seem very brittle. Quad didn’t have a front light. So I was thinking of getting a race harness wire kit to simply the wiring process, and a new ignition coil, any recommendations on this kinda stuff would be helpful. My son checked the stator and said it ohm’ed out ok.
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Oem CDI’s are discontinued. New old stock pop up from time to time but you’ll be looking at around $400 for one. A set up from HPI, Motor City Spark or Zeeltronic is an option. Now as far as wiring harnesses contact All250R:
https://www.forums.trx250r.org/index.php/topic,8732.msg78550.html#msg78550
Joe
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Thanks Joe! Ok fellas she’s holding 5.5 psi, well it has a slow , slow , leak around this brand new intake boot. Lost about 2 psi, in about 12 minutes. Probably gonna hone the surface finish of the metal and try again tomorrow after work.
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An air leak that small will not effect the jetting, the idle quality or a piston seizure.
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Thanks Jerry for that information. I got a question about long term storage on the motor. I have it built, but I am working on the rest of the quad. Any advice on motor storage while the rest of the quad is being built. Should I put oil in it and turn it over every so often? Maybe a cap full of 2 stroke oil in spark plug hole? Keep it inside house, better than in garage?
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Put it on a Pumashine engine stand & set it on your coffee table until you need it. They make great living room art
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Hi guys been working a lot of shutdowns and there’s no end in sight till July. I see slot of ignition coils online very cheap. Any thoughts or anybody try them? Any recommendations? Son is picking up frame and swing arm this week from getting powder coated! New parts are starting to pile up. Sad I haven’t had time to bond with the build lately.
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Hi guys been working a lot of shutdowns and there’s no end in sight till July. I see slot of ignition coils online very cheap. Any thoughts or anybody try them? Any recommendations? Son is picking up frame and swing arm this week from getting powder coated! New parts are starting to pile up. Sad I haven’t had time to bond with the build lately.
OEM is what I’d buy.
Joe
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Used this little jewel to remove the tiny clutch shaft bearings! Son asked last night, dad how comfortable are you building this motor, I said not sure never built one before.
What brand is that long reach blind hole puller?I can’t seem to find one 10mm dia and long enough to reach the bottom clutch shaft bearing.