TRX250r.org

Author Topic: 363 vs 370  (Read 20393 times)

Offline JesseA420

363 vs 370
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2014, 02:40:54 PM »
how much of a difference would it make in terms of the life of a piston due to heat dissipation if you used something like a swain tech heat coating on the top of the piston? I have ran these coatings in 4 stroke combustion chambers on several of my previous 4 stroke drag bikes with great success.
Quote from: Hawaiiysr;66760
Yup i sucked the head. taste like dirt.

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Offline Big_Mike

363 vs 370
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2014, 03:06:54 PM »
Quote from: Rupp250;35357
ALL  things being equal. There is no replacement for displacement.

I must agree with you Rupp!  This holds true for any type of motor- the only time this statement may not hold true is if a power adder is brought into the equation...  On a naturally aspirated motor there definitely no replacement for displacement!!!

Offline udontknowme

363 vs 370
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2014, 04:24:04 PM »
your far better off having 2 or more small displacement cylinders rather than one large on.  250 x2 would beat the pants off a 500 x1 cylinder
to much power is almost enough

Offline Jerry Hall

363 vs 370
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2014, 06:24:17 PM »
Quote from: JesseA420;35431
how much of a difference would it make in terms of the life of a piston due to heat dissipation if you used something like a swain tech heat coating on the top of the piston? I have ran these coatings in 4 stroke combustion chambers on several of my previous 4 stroke drag bikes with great success.

Applying the thermal barrier on a highly developed two stroke will drive the engine into instant pre-ignition and then detonation when it comes on the pipe.  

The four strokes have twice as much time for the surface of the barrier to cool between power strokes and the thermal barriers do not usually cause a problem unless you have a 15000 + RPM fourstroke.

Offline Jerry Hall

363 vs 370
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2014, 08:16:56 PM »
Quote from: Big_Mike;35435
I must agree with you Rupp! This holds true for any type of motor- the only time this statement may not hold true is if a power adder is brought into the equation... On a naturally aspirated motor there definitely no replacement for displacement!!!

For poorly developed engines, displacement is an easy way to add power to any two or four stroke engine. A 60 cc leaf blower usually makes more power than a 50 cc leaf blower made by the same company. A Honda stock XR 600 usually makes more power than a stock XR500. A stock 350X usually makes more power than a 250X...and so on.......

It is sad that the statement does not usually hold true for engines that are highly developed and someone just installs a stroker crank and or a big bore kit. Every week someone calls or brings in an engine that had a really good engine combination of pipe/port/carb/head/ignition and now the power is down and or it will not stay together after they went window-shopping on the net. They filled their shopping cart with snake oil and ruined a really good power package with the contents in the shopping cart. The customer reports his new big bore stoker engine has more power down in the 3000 to 5500 RPM range but does not pull has hard or rev like my old 250. I look at the mess and shake my head asking why did you do that to a real good power package?

Grandpa, Dad and Uncle Buford always said there is not replacement for displacement on those flat head ford V8s so it must also apply to the TRX 250R Hondas and all of the other high tech engines. After doing "his research": Looking at 100 other shops on the net that were selling different flavors of the same snake oil he swallowed the hook and bought a big bore piston and stroker crank. I had a friend that is the lead techs at my local Honda dealer install the kit for me. My friend followed the kit instructions. He bored the cylinder for the forged piston and then honed it to the recommended clearance of .0015” with a ball hone. He checked the welded stroker crank for trueness and he worked on it for a couple of hours and finally got true to within .003”. Then we removed the stock air box and the factory intake hose and put a K&N air filter 3” in diameter and 6” long directly on the back of the carburetor so the engine can breath with the added displacement.

It is sad but we all have probably experienced the above scenario. If you have not, you are probably still in those PAINFUL-EXPENSIVE adolescent years of learning about what to do, what not to do or who has a good recipe to build an engine to fulfill your needs.

An engine builder cannot repeatedly build a fast reliable package without first making a lot of mistakes while developing, testing and finding the right recipe (specifications and components). When a good recipe is developed and then it is followed, it will make one powerful and reliable package just like when our mom and grandmothers use a recipe that may have taken years before they "got it right". Many of the shops that sell this snake oil are often at the same experience level of building high performance engines as the customers are who at the adolescent level of just starting to get pimples.

An engine that was developed using the larger displacement during development will almost always run circles around an engine that was highly developed and then the larger displacement as added as an update.

Offline Jerry Hall

363 vs 370
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2014, 08:40:01 PM »
Quote from: patman13mia;35413
ahhh thats true. i didnt even think about that. like most ppl i find myself wondering how much hp or torque a quad has and then judge how fast it is from that. thats almost racial profileing now that i think about it. lol


My fastest engines are the ones that i have spent the most testing and development time on. A fast engine can be an accident for some builders but not for me.

When you do a lot of testing and keep detailed records of the test and engine specifications for each dyno or field test, it is possible to go back and build any one of hundreds of different engine packages. If an engine builder has a 1000 dyno runs on a particular year make and model engine, he should have enough information to go back and duplicate the power of anyone of the 1000 dyno runs on another engine. If he does not have enough records to build another engine from specs of anyone of those 1000 dyno runs, he is probably in the category of having an occasional accident.

Offline patman13mia

363 vs 370
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2014, 02:42:24 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Hall;35463
My fastest engines are the ones that i have spent the most testing and development time on. A fast engine can be an accident for some builders but not for me.

When you do a lot of testing and keep detailed records of the test and engine specifications for each dyno or field test, it is possible to go back and build any one of hundreds of different engine packages. If an engine builder has a 1000 dyno runs on a particular year make and model engine, he should have enough information to go back and duplicate the power of anyone of the 1000 dyno runs on another engine. If he does not have enough records to build another engine from specs of anyone of those 1000 dyno runs, he is probably in the category of having an occasional accident.

well my man.. your making a strong case to be my next engine builder!! i really like to read your posts. so much info and detail in your answers make me understand what your saying. i can see the hours you put into your work by the words you type. very respectful i must say.
hey were about in phoenix are you located?? my wife and her entire family is from there. she is from glendale- peoria area.

Offline rsss396

363 vs 370
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2014, 09:04:15 AM »
The old saying of 80% of the power is found with only 20% development and the other
                         20% of the power is found in the last 80% of developmentis so very true

 that is why guys like Jerry Hall ,Mat Shearer, Dennis Packard, Nate McCoy and many other good builders are worth the extra price for their work. you are buying many hours of dyno and/or track time besides the work they are performing.
Anyone looking for a great builder I highly recommend the following.
For CP products dealers I would recommend:
Arlan at LED(site sponsor), Pete Schemberger at Hybrid Engineering, Mat Shearer at Shearer Custom Pipes, Dennis Packard at Packard Racing, and Nate McCoy of McCoys Peformance.

Other great builders I also would recommend: Neil Prichard, Jerry Hall, Bubba Ramsey and James Dodge.

Offline 85drag250r

363 vs 370
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2014, 09:52:12 AM »
Quote from: rsss396;35487
The old saying of 80% of the power is found with only 20% development and the other
                         20% of the power is found in the last 80% of developmentis so very true

 that is why guys like Jerry Hall ,Mat Shearer, Dennis Packard, Nate McCoy and many other good builders are worth the extra price for their work. you are buying many hours of dyno and/or track time besides the work they are performing.
So very true

 

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