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Author Topic: Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods  (Read 6746 times)

Offline Jerry Hall

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« on: January 17, 2015, 10:21:35 PM »
I am starting this thread so that we can discuss crankshaft design, connecting rod design, design intent, manufacturing of these components, and the consequences of choosing one design over another.

We can also discuss the benefits and problems associated with modifications different builders and manufactures perform on crank-shafts and related components.

Offline Jerry Hall

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2015, 10:27:46 PM »
I have always had trouble trying to understand how or why a lot of my customers believe a stroker crank could be stronger and more reliable than a stock crank.

A stroker crank has to have the crank pin hole located closer to the OD of the crank web. If the same interference fit between the crank pin and crank pin hole is maintained on the stroker crank as the stock cranks, the chance of that area of the crank cracking increases.

The majority of the stroker crank builders reduce the interference fit and then weld them to try to keep them from moving and splitting in this area.

The next problem that has to be addresses with stroker cranks with enough additional stroke to be beneficial, is the clearance between the cases and the big end of the connecting rod. The cases have to be trenched and or the OD of the big end of the rod has to be reduced. Trenching the cases reduces the sealing surface and the strength between the mating surfaces of the cases. Reducing the OD of the big end of the rod ALWAYS decreases the RPM where the end of the rod will distort enough to loose the necessary clearance where the rollers stop rolling.

Drag racing engines can often tolerate more connecting rod distortion because the race is over before the heat in the bearing has risen high enough to kill the lubricating film and weld the con rod to the crank pin and bearing. Drag racing engines will often tolerate air leaks that other engines that spend more time at partial throttle cannot tolerate. Air leaks tend to cause more problems at partial throttle than at full throttle.

Snowmobile, road racing, salt flat racers and circle track engines need conrods whose bearing ends do not flex and crankshafts whose crank pin holes are very tight and will not flex the area around the crank pin hole.

Recreational and moto-cross engines fall somewhere between these two extremes mentioned above. One should carefully consider the power benefits vs the potential reduction in strength and reliability that is inherent with a stroker crank and or the modification that are often necessary for stroker crank usage.

Offline FerrinMotorsports

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 12:09:10 AM »
As far as trenching the cases reducing the sealing area this problem has been eradicated by ESR's ..new cases...As far as crank pin flex in circle track a lot depends on what rpm you are running... I for one in my Sprint car would never run anything other than a forged crank...Due to the constant high rpm"s.....with a 250r we don't have the luxury of different crank materials/design....

Offline udontknowme

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 11:31:07 AM »
when using specialized parts or parts that have been modified we always need to use good judgment. if a 2mm trench is going to leave a paper thin sealing surface, then dont do it. if pushing the crank pin 2mm farther out doesnt leave sufficient material between the pin and outer web, then dont do it. this is where having prior engine experience is priceless. the average joe just doesnt see things the same way that someone with years of engine experience does

like the other thread. you can either machine the rod even further or grind alittle bit out of the cases at the top corners. to me its a no brainer to grind a bit out of the cases, since theres likely plenty of material in that area. or worse case scenario, take as much as you safely can from the cases, if it still isnt enough clearance then and only then, maybe think about shaving as little as possible from the rod to make it work. this is just my way of thinking

we know the rod is often times the weak link in the chain. this is why me personally would always look for a different path that didnt involve reducing its integrity
to much power is almost enough

Offline mrtwidster1

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2015, 11:05:39 AM »
Look forward to the input. I still have this question? Is a crank and rod balanced and is there a need?  If so, Is it balanced from the Manufacturer?

Offline rsss396

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2015, 05:20:12 PM »
Quote from: mrtwidster1;48953
Look forward to the input. I still have this question? Is a crank and rod balanced and is there a need?  If so, Is it balanced from the Manufacturer?
The counterbalanced TRX is pretty forgiving, most are reasonable with vibration to around the popular 363cc 76 stroke x 78 piston. But everyone has their own tolerance level and guys balance them as small as the 295cc.
But for the most part you are really not balancing them but infact changeing the balance factor, in the tech section there is a few writeups on crank balancing http://trx250r.org/forums/62-Engine-Bottom-End
Anyone looking for a great builder I highly recommend the following.
For CP products dealers I would recommend:
Arlan at LED(site sponsor), Pete Schemberger at Hybrid Engineering, Mat Shearer at Shearer Custom Pipes, Dennis Packard at Packard Racing, and Nate McCoy of McCoys Peformance.

Other great builders I also would recommend: Neil Prichard, Jerry Hall, Bubba Ramsey and James Dodge.

Offline Jerry Hall

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2015, 01:10:41 AM »
Quote from: rsss396;48985
The counterbalanced TRX is pretty forgiving, most are reasonable with vibration to around the popular 363cc 76 stroke x 78 piston. But everyone has their own tolerance level and guys balance them as small as the 295cc.
But for the most part you are really not balancing them but infact changeing the balance factor, in the tech section there is a few writeups on crank balancing http://trx250r.org/forums/62-Engine-Bottom-End


Allow me to try to summarize or give a crash course in crankshaft balancing for those that do not want to read all of the stuff in the above link

1. We can static balance just about anything but it is an impossible engineering feat to achieve complete dynamic balance of any crank assembly that has less than four cylinders.  Dynamic balance is possible with the proper crankshaft journal configuration that allows two piston and two connecting rods to have opposite and equal motions.  Engines that have multiples of 4 cylinders  (4, 8, 12 etc.) makes complete static and dynamic balance possible.  

2. Three cylinder crankshafts can run smoother than twin cylinder crankshafts and twin cylinder crankshafts can runs smoother than single cylinder crankshaft when the comparing the vibrations due to imbalance.

3.  We apply a balancer factors to single and twin cylinder crankshafts. If we statically balance a single or twin cylinder, the engine will shake in the horizontal plane 90 deg, to the piston motion.

4.  Changing the balance factor of a single cylinder crankshaft changes the forces minimally that are trying to rip the crankshaft out of the cases but changing the balance factor has the largest influence on the direction that the engine shakes.

5.  Adding a counter balancer shaft  to a single or twin cylinder with properly positioned counter-weights reduces the overall engine shake but does not keep the crankshaft from trying to rip itself from the cases.

5.  Engineers experiment with different balance factors to determine which balance factor excites a particular chassis design the least and provides the rider with the least amount of discomfort. I see some shops selling dynamic balancing services for single and twin crankshafts.  These shops have not been properly trained or are taking advantage of their customers lack of understanding of the physics of not being able to dynamically balance their type of engine.

6.  Twin cylinder crankshaft engines produce what is called a rocking couple.  Simply stated, the center line of a running twin cylinder crankshaft traces the shape of an hour glass.  The two end of the crank move in a circle and the point halfway between the cylinders is motionless.  As the distance between cylinders  and the mass of the pistons increase, the rocking couple forces increase exponentially.

Offline pinned250r

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2015, 08:09:52 AM »
I am loving this thread. Keep it coming!
I ride PINNED! Therefore, no bdt in this household.

Offline Tbone07

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2015, 09:55:09 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Hall;48885
I am starting this thread so that we can discuss crankshaft design, connecting rod design, design intent, manufacturing of these components, and the consequences of choosing one design over another.

We can also discuss the benefits and problems associated with modifications different builders and manufactures perform on crank-shafts and related components.

Jerry....typically you get much less vibration from a four stroke engine. Can you explain why this is?
LED Performance 350R
Laegers-JD Performance-GThunder-HLS-PEP-HiPer-GBC

RIP Laz

Offline mrtwidster1

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2015, 12:56:41 PM »
One reason i ask about balance is because if an amount of mass is  removed from the connecting rod does this affect the "balance". If so then the DREMIL tool approach on the connecting rod (for case clearance) is probably not a good idea without re-balancing the crank.
Maybe chasing the wrong rabbit.

Offline Jerry Hall

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2015, 01:42:08 PM »
Quote from: Tbone07;49065
Jerry....typically you get much less vibration from a four stroke engine. Can you explain why this is?

Are you referring to a single or multi-cylinder 4 stroke?

Offline Tbone07

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2015, 01:48:21 PM »
Quote from: Jerry Hall;49076
Are you referring to a single or multi-cylinder 4 stroke?

Single cylinder
LED Performance 350R
Laegers-JD Performance-GThunder-HLS-PEP-HiPer-GBC

RIP Laz

Offline Jerry Hall

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2015, 02:31:51 PM »
Quote from: mrtwidster1;49074
One reason i ask about balance is because if an amount of mass is removed from the connecting rod does this affect the "balance". If so then the DREMIL tool approach on the connecting rod (for case clearance) is probably not a good idea without re-balancing the crank.
Maybe chasing the wrong rabbit.

Mass removed from the connecting rod will affect the balance. How much the balance is affected depends on the amount of mass removed.

I would not worry about re-bslancing the crank assembly if you are referring to the small amount of mass that would need to be removed from the RaBlack21's Hot Rod stroker to get sufficient case clearance.  

If it were mine I would grind the case and not the connecting rod.  I want my rods as thick and as strong as possible on the big end of the rod.

A new OEM Honda crank usually has .025" to .030" wobble or side deflection at the wrist pin end of the connecting rod.  The wobble method is a method that Yamaha adopted in their service manuals 40 years ago to measure the state of ware or internal clearance between the crank pin, roller bearing and the ID of the big end of the connecting rod.  Using this method, one can measure the state of ware of the big end of the con rod  when the top end is off and not have to split the cases and press the crank apart to take precise measurements.  

New replacement connecting rods from Hot Rods and the rods that come on their 250 Honda cranks and stroker cranks typically have .040" to .060" small end deflection.  The additional clearance is necessary to keep the rollers from skidding  or running out of operating clearance due to the big end distortion at high RPM.  Having the additional clearance reduces the life span of the connecting rod/bearing assembly.  Reducing the radial thickness of the big of the rod always increase the big end distortion a at high RPM.  If you want to play...........  you have to be willing to accept some reduction in the life of your lower end.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 02:46:19 PM by Jerry Hall »

Offline mrtwidster1

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2015, 02:39:38 PM »
Thanks Mr Hall. Your expertise and input is greatly appreciated.

Offline Jerry Hall

Stroker Cranks and Con-Rods vs OEM Cranks and Con-rods
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2015, 02:44:17 PM »
Quote from: Tbone07;49065
Jerry....typically you get much less vibration from a four stroke engine. Can you explain why this is?

Most of the new generation 250 and 450 four stroke singles have counter balancers, a very short stroke and the pistons look like hockey pucks.

The short stroke and light-weight pistons reduces the force that it takes to change the direction of piston  and con-rod motion.  The majority of the vibration is created when the components change direction.  Components that are constantly in pure rotation like ignition flywheels, crank webs, clutch baskets, gears etc are easily balanced on 2 and 4 strokes.

The valves oscillation and the eccentric lobes of the cams also contribute to some lower frequency vibrations.

 

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