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Author Topic: this is strange  (Read 4582 times)

Offline udontknowme

this is strange
« on: July 06, 2014, 12:36:42 AM »
got measuring a cylinder and piston that was only a few hours old and noticed nearly .010" clearance so i check the cylinder agaisnt a brandnew one and its within .001". check the piston against a new one and the couple hour old one is damn near .006" smaller. im quit sure i checked clearance before i put it together few months back and dont recall anything odd. so im wondering if the skirts could of collapsed that much in just a few hours ?  its a older version wiseco with thinner skirts so maybe its possible. only thing else i can think of is it wasnt the correct size to begin with and i didnt check when i put it together and its been nearly .010 all along but im possitive i checked it. then again maybe i forgot to check and it was part of a bad batch of pistons . either way something is definatly wrong with this piston. either its seriously collapsed or wiseco really effed up on this batch
to much power is almost enough

Offline Sky

this is strange
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2014, 09:25:02 AM »
Is your measurement of the piston the same as whats stamped on the top of the piston?

Offline GO OVRIT

this is strange
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 10:26:04 AM »
Is it out of spec from top to bottom or just at the bottom?  Is it round or oval shaped now?

Offline udontknowme

this is strange
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 01:42:23 PM »
didnt even measure the top. at the bottom just above the cutout its near .006" smaller than a new one. both supposed to be for 89mm bores. thats whats stamped on top anyways
to much power is almost enough

Offline fearlessfred

this is strange
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2014, 08:07:35 PM »
A few years back I was on the phone with allan knowels from CT and I remember him saying something about weiscos and there skirts collapsing,I don't remember any details but thought it was worth mentioning. a pm to jerry hall would help

Offline Jerry Hall

this is strange
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 01:51:18 AM »
This is a common problem on the 150 cc and larger Wiseco forged pistons.  Larger pistons collapse much quicker than the smaller pistons.  On the CR 500, KX 500 and LT 500 it is not uncommon for the major piston diameter to be .003 to .005" inches smaller  and the diameter of the piston parallel to the wrist pin to be .003" to .005" larger after one hard riding session. What is happening to the pistons is the same thing that happens to a cardboard toilet paper roll when it is squeezed. (Gets smaller in one direction and larger in another direction.

Wiseco has a list of complaints a mile long from me over this problem on a lot of different types of two strokes.  I have not complained much in the last ten years since Dover Diversified bought, Wiseco, JE Pistons, Vertex pistons, Carrillo Rods, and there was talk that they also were going to buy Pro X.

A guy from Dover called me right after they purchased Wiseco wanting to know if Wiseco ever found a remedy for the collapsing problems I was having with their pistons.  The answer was a big NO.  He said that they were not gong make any design changes on the old two stroke stuff unless I was willing to pay for new forging dies.  I think my design would be a little heavier but it would probably solve the collapsing problems they are having with their current 40 year old big bore two stroke piston designs.  They also agreed that my design would probably solve the problem but they were not willing to invest any of their money on these obsolete two stroke engines.

Using the numbers they gave me for custom forging dies, and small runs of pistons (anything less than 100 pistons):  If I spread the cost of the new forging dies over 50 to 100 pistons, plus the cost of small runs of pistons of around 50 pistons of one size would put piston prices at about $250.00 to $300.00 each.  That was 10 years ago when I did the numbers.  I do not know what they would charge nowadays for the custom dies and small runs of pistons.  If I could do it for less than 300 per piston, guys might buy them because guys are standing in line to spend $250 to $300 for four stroke pistons from Wiseco JE, and CP.

Not long after Dover bought JE Pistons, the key designers left JE and started CP pistons.  CP purchased Carrillo Rods from Dover a couple of years ago and now CP is in the process getting Carrillo's products back up to par after being owned by Dover.

Offline C-Leigh Racing

this is strange
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 11:54:26 PM »
After reading that, its a good thing my son-inlaw is sponsored by Wiseco, because those 14:1 CPs he uses retail for like $350.00 each.
Look more like an end table coaster to me than a piston.
Neil
C-Leigh Racing, in memory of Caraleigh Pritchard
Race team for 2015
Chuckie Creech #25 TRX450R, Pro, Pro Am, Pro Am Unlimited
Andrea Creech # 25 TRX450R, Womens (National ATVA EDT)
Andrea Creech #33 TRX350R, Womens (local EDT)

If it aint got a hot weed eater 2 stroke engine, all its good for is a pit bike

Offline udontknowme

this is strange
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 12:41:39 AM »
the latest version for cr5 has the skirt thickness increased alot from the previous version. i cant think of any other reason than to try and keep the skirts from collapsing. then to offset the extra weight they hog out the sides which leaves a huge void near bdc just as the mixture is trying to head for the cylinder. i cant see this void between piston and cylinder wall being a good thing


to much power is almost enough

 

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