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Author Topic: Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix  (Read 5258 times)

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« on: December 09, 2014, 08:15:27 AM »
For the last 2 years, I have dealt with an issue of the ratcheting gears on the kicker mechanism not engagement very well. This results in a person kicking down to start the engine but there is little to no resistance behind the kicker and you can hear an audible grinding noise. I have inspected the ratchet gears themselves and concluded that they are in good condition and not wore down. This basically only leaves the compression spring between the 2 ratcheting gears to blame. I suspect that over time this spring gets weak and then doesn't supply the same force that it used to to getting the driving ratchet gear to engage quickly with it's counterpart. Being that you can't buy these compression springs from Honda anymore, I decided to make a replacement one. My intention is to achieve better and more positive engagement of the ratchet gears.

This is what I have done so far:
I measured the dimensions from the original spring (ID, ext. length, comp. length, wire dia., #of coils, etc) and calculated what the estimated force of the factory spring was. I then went on McMaster Carr and ordered a compression spring wire that had a higher compression force than what I calculated, being that the factory wire is probably worn out.
Here is what I ended up with:

The compression spring wire that came from much longer than I needed, but they didn't have a short one in what I needed, so I had to cut one to size. I have not tested this spring yet. But I will be as my motor comes back together. The new spring wire is noticeably stiffer than the OEM one, just by feel. I will post an initial review once I have had a chance to test this idea. Thanks for reading.

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 09:28:31 AM »
This is the material that I am using.
302 Stainless Steel Cut-to-Length Compression Spring
20" Length, 1.218" OD, .080" Wire Diameter
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9663k99/=uy5bog

Offline Tador

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 12:17:27 PM »
rablack,
Is the 1.218" OD .080" wire what the oem spring measured? Shoot me some specs, I work in engineering and have some contacts for various spring suppliers; I might be able to find a direct fit. (My quad is 2 hours away).

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 12:35:41 PM »
Quote from: Tador;47362
rablack,
Is the 1.218" OD .080" wire what the oem spring measured? Shoot me some specs, I work in engineering and have some contacts for various spring suppliers; I might be able to find a direct fit. (My quad is 2 hours away).
No, that is not the dimensions of the OEM spring. That is just the closest spring material I could find dimension wise with the force that I wanted. The wire I chose had a larger wire diameter to provide more force than what the oem was set at. The OD is not that critical, as long as it was in the ballpark. I will remeasure the oem spring so you will have the dimensions, but I doubt you will find a supplier that will be willing to get us some springs without them being rather expensive. But you are welcome to try.

Offline Tador

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2014, 12:54:21 PM »
Quote from: rablack21;47364
No, that is not the dimensions of the OEM spring. That is just the closest spring material I could find dimension wise with the force that I wanted. The wire I chose had a larger wire diameter to provide more force than what the oem was set at. The OD is not that critical, as long as it was in the ballpark. I will remeasure the oem spring so you will have the dimensions, but I doubt you will find a supplier that will be willing to get us some springs without them being rather expensive. But you are welcome to try.

Worth a shot! Grab those specs and I'll see what I can kick up. I wish I had ripped mine out last weekend, I could have tested the actual spring force here at work. Doh! Hind sight is always 20/20.

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2014, 01:04:06 PM »
Quote from: Tador;47368
Worth a shot! Grab those specs and I'll see what I can kick up. I wish I had ripped mine out last weekend, I could have tested the actual spring force here at work. Doh! Hind sight is always 20/20.
The problem with testing the one you have is it probably will not show the force that it should have, because it is wore out. I calculated the force of the oem spring based on the dimensions of the spring, thus taking fatigue out of the equation.

Offline Tador

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2014, 01:22:59 PM »
Yes very true, it'd at least give a worn out baseline of trying to figure out what wire type was used / original spring rate and installed force was is all. (Music wire? Hard drawn?).  

It'll be fine (and wise) to go about it the way that you are, regardless (this application seems like one where the more force the merrier). One thing that I'd look at is what the installed height of the spring is, that'll determine what spring rate you need to hit a force value at that given height. And also, what the max travel is.  You can then base the free length of whatever spring you chose on that, and it may open up some additional options for aftermarket springs. (such as a longer spring at a lower rate... but installed gives the force needed to do the job). This is why "stretching" a worn out stock spring works, if the "worn out" rate is 10lbs per inch, and you stretch it an inch, you'll pick up 10lbf at the installed height. Kinda like going to Florida by way of Canada, but if it opens up "off the shelf" spring options, could be beneficial for people looking to do a direct swap.

Anyway, moral of the story, if I know what the "worn out" force is at the installed height, what the max solid height is (travel), I can add 10lbs to it and find an off the shelf spring through one of my suppliers that might work. Sorry for being long winded, just trying to explain where my dimented mind is coming from lol. :thinking:

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2014, 01:41:49 PM »
Quote from: Tador;47373
Yes very true, it'd at least give a worn out baseline of trying to figure out what wire type was used / original spring rate and installed force was is all. (Music wire? Hard drawn?).  

It'll be fine (and wise) to go about it the way that you are, regardless (this application seems like one where the more force the merrier). One thing that I'd look at is what the installed height of the spring is, that'll determine what spring rate you need to hit a force value at that given height. And also, what the max travel is.  You can then base the free length of whatever spring you chose on that, and it may open up some additional options for aftermarket springs. (such as a longer spring at a lower rate... but installed gives the force needed to do the job). This is why "stretching" a worn out stock spring works, if the "worn out" rate is 10lbs per inch, and you stretch it an inch, you'll pick up 10lbf at the installed height. Kinda like going to Florida by way of Canada, but if it opens up "off the shelf" spring options, could be beneficial for people looking to do a direct swap.

Anyway, moral of the story, if I know what the "worn out" force is at the installed height, what the max solid height is (travel), I can add 10lbs to it and find an off the shelf spring through one of my suppliers that might work. Sorry for being long winded, just trying to explain where my dimented mind is coming from lol. :thinking:
It's cool. I know exactly what your are talking about. All that was taken into consideration when trying to decide a new spring size and material. My only assumption was the wire material. My best assumption was hard drawn. The limiting factor of the spring was based off of the compressed length. If the compressed length of the new spring was much longer, it would interfere with the gears engaging. The free length was easy to obtain. The spring is basically on compressing about an inch. So all my calculations were based off of the spring rate per inch. If I remember correctly, the factory oem had a spring rate of 4lbs per inch, and the wire I am using has about 8 or 10 lbs per inch.

Offline Tador

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2014, 01:54:30 PM »
Awesome! :eagerness: I'll poke around a little for ya' when you get those dimensions.

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2015, 10:51:19 AM »
I installed the new spring. The engine is not completely together yet, but I will be testing its function and movement before I run the engine. So far it is showing a very firm, positive engagement.
pic of oem and new spring

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 11:14:01 AM »
Update:
So far the new custom cut spring is installed in the kicker assembly. I just got the motor completely assembled and installed in the frame. So far the kicker mechanism is functioning correctly and crisply just from the perspective of turning it over slowly. I have not actually kicked the motor over yet. This was just a check to see if the kicker is engaging correctly. I will be kicking the engine over soon, so I will have a better idea how well the spring is working. Then it will become an observation of endurance and repeatability. Stay tuned.

Offline rablack21

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2015, 04:42:20 PM »
Update on this project. I have engaged the kicker about 60-70 times or so now and the mechanism has had no slipping of the gears whatsoever. So far so good. I will continue to run this new spring and observe it there are any side effects. But right now, it has shown to be a viable replacement/possible upgrade.

Offline JOHNNY FIVE

Kicker Starter Poor Engagement: Possible compression spring fix
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2015, 12:40:50 AM »
I appreciate your updates on your findings.My kicker slips a bit and need to look into taking care of it.

 

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