Will full synthetic oils mix well at 32:1 or 20:1?

[Jerry Hall]

I used to use R50 in a banshee I had.  It worked fine on the sand dunes but when I would trail ride it would build up so much carbon on the spark plug it would foul out 1 or 2 a day.  Since I mostly trail ride I don't think R50 would work out so well.....Kind of leaning towards Maxima Super M or maybe the honda synthetic premix oil..

An engine should be used for the intended design and tuned for that application for which it was intended.

An engine is run at a higher percentage of time at 1/2 to full throttle in the dunes than when ridden on the trails.  Riding at 1/2 to full throttle makes the average operating temperature of the spark plug run much higher than trail riding.  The average spark plug temperature is much lower when trail riding causing the deposits not to burn off and keep the spark plug clean.  

The average operating temperature of the spark plug can be easily raised when trail riding or cold weather riding by using a hotter heat range spark plug.  The hotter heat range will keep the plug cleaner but the time one spends at full throttle must be reduced considerably to keep the spark plug from causing pre-ignition.

[supernutt]

Makes perfect sense.  Just a little nervous using hotter plugs though.  So have you tried any synthetic oils at 24:1 or so when the manufacturer recommends a much lower concentration like 50:1? And if so, is it a wise thing to do or are there better choices?

[udontknowme]

Maxima Super m is about 20% castor and the remainder is petroleum and a splash of synthetic.

Maxima 927 is over 90% castor oil.

thats weird. superM msds doesnt mention anything about castor in the ingredients, and im quit positive that would be required to be listed if it was in there. you might be thinking of super techniplate which is about 20% castor according to the klotz website, it makes no mention of having petroleum in it however. pure synthetic bases with 20% castor is how the website describes it. ive never heard of a petroleum based oil with castor. quit frankly im not even sure they would mix together but maybe so.

927 very well could be 90% castor. i have never found any concrete information that states exactly how much castor is in it. i assumed it was similar to super techniplate at about 25%. where did you get the 90% info ?

[Jerry Hall]

Makes perfect sense.  Just a little nervous using hotter plugs though.  So have you tried any synthetic oils at 24:1 or so when the manufacturer recommends a much lower concentration like 50:1? And if so, is it a wise thing to do or are there better choices?

The lubrication will improve when you add more oil to the fuel regardless of the type or brand of oil.

I have not tried running amsoil dominator at 24:1.  

Some synthetics will not make good power in the 15:1 to 30:1 range because some synthetic oils hinders the combustion process.  This is why some synthetic oil containers say BEST PERFORMANCE IS AT 50:1.  They do not say BEST LUBRICATION IS AT 50:1

Just try it and see if you notice a power loss.

The jetting change required would be less than 1 main jet size and less than 1 needle clip position.

[Jerry Hall]

thats weird. superM msds doesnt mention anything about castor in the ingredients, and im quit positive that would be required to be listed if it was in there. you might be thinking of super techniplate which is about 20% castor according to the klotz website, it makes no mention of having petroleum in it however. pure synthetic bases with 20% castor is how the website describes it. ive never heard of a petroleum based oil with castor. quit frankly im not even sure they would mix together but maybe so.

927 very well could be 90% castor. i have never found any concrete information that states exactly how much castor is in it. i assumed it was similar to super techniplate at about 25%. where did you get the 90% info ?

Years ago Super M's container said that it was a blend of castor and some other oils.  Maybe they have changed formulation or they may not be required to list all of the ingredients if some ingredients are below a certain percentage.

Petroleum and castor will not not mix unless you use some blending agents that will cause the two to bond together.

The 90% info came from Richard Lichein. Richard Lichein was the founder of Maxima.  I helped Richard on some projects around 1980 to 1982 when his son Ronnie was a factory rider for Team Yamaha.  He told me that he had to use some blending agents because 100% castor will not mix with gasoline.  927 may not blend as well with gasoline in cold weather as some of the other castor oils  because it may have more castor and less blending agents.

[supernutt]

Sounds good.  Thanks for the response

[rablack21]

Been running amsoil dominator at 40:1 for a little bit.  After reading some of the posts about oil I want to mix it at least 32:1 or maybe even 24:1 on the dunes.  Just wondering if I can do that with a synthetic oil like dominator or if I have to switch to a conventional oil?  Cant run castor oil due to the cold temps here.  I do most of my riding in the cold.  Would be going in my 310 and my 330 on race fuel.

You can mix Dominator at 32:1 or 24:1 with no issues. It will not burn quite as clean, but shouldn't really be an issue especially if you don't have a power valve. I wouldn't really worry about what mixture your oil makes the most power at either as that is not the main purpose of the oil. It's first purpose is protection, atleast it should be. You can run Dominator at 50:1 or at 24:1. It's really your choice. If it for some reason makes you feel better or more comfortable to run it at a lower mix ratio, then do it. Dominator is set at 50:1 for a reason. Yes, it offers best performance at 50:1 overall, but it also offers great protection at 50:1 as well being that protection is it's first purpose. I can't speak for other company's, but that has always been Amsoil's stance on all their products.But as I said, if it gives you more "peace of mind" to use a certain oil ratio, then go for it. There is really no reason to swap the brand you are using just for that. Obviously, you are happy with the performance you have been getting or you wouldn't be so hesitant in changing. If you like using synthetic oil, keep in mind something, Amsoil created the first 2 stroke synthetic oil,first synthetic motor oil for automotive industry, first synthetic diesel oil, first synthetic automatic transmission fluid, first synthetic gear oil, first synthetic racing oil, and others. Amsoil has been leading the way in synthetic oil technology since 1972.

[rsss396]

I have seen a container of castor oil freeze hard before, but when mixed with alcohol in a glass jar at 0 degrees I did not notice any change or separation of the mix

[red88r]

Well I don't use the Benol in the winter at all.  Only run R50 or Super Techiniplate at 32:1 and it works great.  I personally would not run the above mentioned oil at all....especially at high ratio's.  Btw Klotz had been around since 1959.......they just don't need to spend alot on advertising because their products are that good.  And if you have not guessed I sell Klotz.:p

[udontknowme]

yes ive seen castor at the point where it wouldnt pour out of the bottle.

not sure if ive posted these before but its easy to see a change has taken place when the temp gets to a certain point. i found some info ive never heard of before and thats cloud point. maybe thats whats happening.



this is the same as the photo above, just moments later in the garage so the light was good enough to take a photo



this was a while later (cant recall how many minutes) when it rised in temp

[supernutt]

My mind is made up on the ratio of 24:1 on the dunes.  I may go to 32:1 for trail riding but not sure yet.  The brand of oil I use doesn't matter too much but I am leaning strongly towards the amsoil because it is actually the cheapest of all of them and I can easily get it.  I was always under the assumption that castor oils don't work in the cold because they separate.  Looks like something else happens also......

[Jerry Hall]

yes ive seen castor at the point where it wouldnt pour out of the bottle.

not sure if ive posted these before but its easy to see a change has taken place when the temp gets to a certain point. i found some info ive never heard of before and thats cloud point. maybe thats whats happening.



this is the same as the photo above, just moments later in the garage so the light was good enough to take a photo



this was a while later (cant recall how many minutes) when it rised in temp

If the fuel is cloudy like in one of your photos, the fuel and the oil have separated.  If you let the cloudy mixture sit long enough, the major volume of  fuel will turn clear with a layer of oil on the bottom of the glass container.  The cloudy mixture is composed of a bizillion microscopic droplets of pure oil surrounded by pure oil-less fuel.

If you want to have some fun, cool the mixture back down to 15 to 20 degrees where it will become cloudy when stirred up.  Now take an eye dropper and count how many drops of pump gas it will take to turn the mixture crystal clear while stirring and maintaining the fuel temperature at 15 to 20 degrees.

Most of the time adding 2% to 5% of pump gas to a cloudy mixture will make the oil and fuel turn crystal clear.  Clear fuel indicates the fuel and oil are homogeneously mixed down to the molecular level at that temperature.

[udontknowme]

if you poured oil in water, that would be most peoples definition of seperation. that doesnt appear to be what happens with castor, atleast not at the temps shown in the photos above. it seems to be staying partially mixed. if you could examine it with a microscope im sure you would see the seperation. at extreme temps it may become like oil and water but thats irrelevant because i doubt any one is stupid enough to ride in sub zero conditions. from what ive seen castor can turn to a solid which would make it nearly impossible to mix with gas. it would remain a blob. like peanut butter in water

[Jerry Hall]

if you poured oil in water, that would be most peoples definition of seperation. that doesnt appear to be what happens with castor, atleast not at the temps shown in the photos above. it seems to be staying partially mixed. if you could examine it with a microscope im sure you would see the seperation. at extreme temps it may become like oil and water but thats irrelevant because i doubt any one is stupid enough to ride in sub zero conditions. from what ive seen castor can turn to a solid which would make it nearly impossible to mix with gas. it would remain a blob. like peanut butter in water

When the fuel is cloudy the fuel and oil are at the threshold or is in the initial process of separation.  In chemical reactions this is know as precipitation because the fuel as reached it's saturation point (cannot keep any more oil dissolved in the solution) .  If you keep the fuel at the temperature where it just started to cloud. It may take days for the oil to settle to the bottom of the jar.  Lowering the temperature  will speed up the time it takes for the oil to settle to the bottom of the jar.

If the castor has absorbed a little moisture the water will start to crystallize if the temperature is below freezing.

[udontknowme]

maybe wax is part of the castor and gets solid at a certain temp causing the cloud