TRX250r.org

Author Topic: distorted a piston  (Read 8361 times)

Offline GO OVRIT

distorted a piston
« on: April 20, 2014, 10:07:29 PM »
My 330 was running almost perfect.  It felt a little off at wot in 4th-6th which I only get to use on one stretch of our track.  I thought it felt rich, but now I don't know.   It started easy, idled, and pulled good ever since I put it together this time last year. The other day, it ran great for a few 15 min hard runs.  It never felt like it siezed and never shut off.  It sat probably an hour, and when I went to load it, I couldn't get it started.  I tried again at home with a new plug, and still nothing.  It felt low on compression.  I was in one of those moods where I just started pulling it down before I even put a guage on it.  The piston has a little bit of burn on the front, but not close to the ring.  The crown is uneven with a low spot the size of my thumbprint just back from the exhaust side.  It's like it was right on the verge of blowing a hole through, but it cooled before it did.  He cylinder is visually ok.  No signs of seizure.   I'm running 110/klotz super tech, a 38 a/s with 185, 58, dgh 4th clip that has a flat spot ground at the bottom, and a #7 slide.  Ignition is a 96 cr250.  Every time I've been too lean before its seized and caused more visual damage. Any ideas what I have going on.

Offline xTHUNDERCATx

distorted a piston
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 11:25:51 PM »
The people on here that are smarter then me are probably going to ask for a picture kind sir. Without one sounds like detonation. Either its getting hot and the fuel is igniting to early or you have to high of a compression ratio for the fuel octane you are running and its igniting early. (thats my random speculation but a picture will probably help people get you on the right path)

Offline Jerry Hall

distorted a piston
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 12:42:20 AM »
Show us the piston crown, the skirts on the intake and exhaust side of the piston.
 
Show us the exhaust system and silencer.  

Is the silencer a spark arrestor?  

How old is the fuel and what type of container has it been stored in since purchased.

Offline GO OVRIT

distorted a piston
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2014, 10:48:22 PM »
It looks a little different now that it's pulled apart.  The piston did burn down to the ring on the exhaust side.   I never felt any seizure,  but the front corners of the piston are both scared and the top ring is stuck.  You can see slight marks in the cylinder, but can't feel anything.  The pictures are not very good.  The pipe is a standard trx5 from esr.  Its probably been 8-10 hours since I packed the silencer.  I got the fuel 3 weeks ago, and it stays in a sealed can inside my garage.  It's cam2 r+m/2 is 110.

Offline GO OVRIT

distorted a piston
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 10:51:57 PM »
For some reason. I can only get one pic per post to load.

Offline traxman

distorted a piston
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2014, 12:05:54 AM »
That's detonation and your jetting seems to be in the ballpark. I'd look to your stator side seal or a air leak somewhere. The reason I pointed out the stator seal it's often overlooked.  Do a leak down before you run it again after a new top end, to ensure you don't have a leak. Also re-torque the head and cylinder base nuts after initial heat cycle.

Offline Jerry Hall

distorted a piston
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2014, 10:45:50 AM »
Quote from: traxman;32267
That's detonation and your jetting seems to be in the ballpark. I'd look to your stator side seal or a air leak somewhere. The reason I pointed out the stator seal it's often overlooked.  Do a leak down before you run it again after a new top end, to ensure you don't have a leak. Also re-torque the head and cylinder base nuts after initial heat cycle.

What do you see that tells you the jetting is in the ballpark?

Offline rablack21

distorted a piston
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2014, 12:59:34 PM »
Check out this link. I think it will help you in your search for the issue. http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/dirt-bike-tech-twostroke-seizure-52428.html

Look specifically under the section that says " scuffing on exhaust side only". This should give you some incite.

Offline fearlessfred

distorted a piston
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2014, 02:20:54 PM »
I think you had a cold seize early on, and then a lean condition later on when it totally failed

Offline Jerry Hall

distorted a piston
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2014, 08:21:22 PM »
Quote from: rablack21;32306
Check out this link. I think it will help you in your search for the issue. http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/dirt-bike-tech-twostroke-seizure-52428.html

Look specifically under the section that says " scuffing on exhaust side only". This should give you some incite.

I went to the site whose link is above and looked at the article about two stroke seizure.  There are a lot of great pictures of piston failures and a few good explanations of what caused the piston failure of the featured piston.
 
Some of the explanations of of what caused the piston failure were close to being correct for the type of piston failure, but he had the wrong picture.

Many of the explanations of of what caused certain types of piston failure were not even close to being right and also had the wrong picture.

I wish I had the time to spend all day reading all of the stuff that is on the web and adding comments based upon my engineering education and hands on experience.  If I was grading the article on Piston Seizures I would give it a C- or a D+.

I would be happy to give  you my opinion of what cause the piston failure in this thread but I still need close up pictures that are in focus and views of all sides of the piston as well as views of the underside of the piston.

Offline GO OVRIT

distorted a piston
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2014, 09:13:31 PM »
I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, but I don't have a good camera.  As far as a cold seizure, I guess its possible, but I never ride/rev it before the cylinder is hot to the touch.  As far as an air leak, I replaced everything and had zero gauge movement .  I'll see what I can do about getting a camera.

Offline fearlessfred

distorted a piston
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2014, 11:41:00 PM »
I hope you get some good pics ,because im interested in hearing what jerry has to say. is there scuffing on four corners of the piston,   I can see one corner that is .can you see transfer wash on the top of the piston.If your running fat enough you can see clean spots  on the piston were the transfers are and is the bottom side of the crown burnt black color

Offline GO OVRIT

distorted a piston
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2014, 07:04:00 PM »
Ok, I hope these are good enough.

Offline Jerry Hall

distorted a piston
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2014, 12:17:25 PM »
Quote from: GO OVRIT;32861
Ok, I hope these are good enough.

Quote from: GO OVRIT;32861
Ok, I hope these are good enough.


Visibly, the cylinder looks ok but shows signs of the rings being worn out for some time. Note the patches of blow-by above the exhaust port. Note the many other areas where the rings are not making even contact indicated by dull and shiny spots on the cylinder wall.

Lack of scuffs or seize marks on the intake side of piston shows that lubrication was still present between the piston and cylinder wall even though the piston clearance had disappeared and the piston was operating with a press-fit for clearance. The temperature on the exhaust side of the piston skirt and cylinder wall was enough hotter that the lubrication film could not hold up operating with a press-fit for clearance. When the lubrication film breaks down (reaches the critical temperature where the oil does not provide any lubrication) it only takes less than a second for the friction to generate enough heat to cause the surface of the piston to melt making the seize marks on the piston.

Scuffs and seizure marks on the skirt on the exhaust side of the piston, indicates the upper portion of the piston was larger than the lower portion of the piston. The seize marks being on the upper portion of the piston indicates the piston operating temperature was higher than what the piston was designed for. A properly designed and well-developed piston operating under full load and operating in the temperature range for which it was designed, will be round and have approximately the same diameter from top to bottom. At room temperature most pistons diameters are oval and tapered from top to bottom. Piston diameters are typically .005” to .015” smaller at the top than at the lower skirt. The oval/tapered shape we see on pistons at room temperature is the shape they need to have in order to move toward a shape that make full contact with the cylinder wall when the piston is up to normal operating temperature.

A piston will NEVER transfer aluminum to the cylinder wall or produce seizure marks on the piston if there is a working lubrication film. I have had numerous times in the controlled environment of the dyno room, using OEM pistons and plated cylinders, where the piston is over-heated and expands enough to have a press-fit for clearance.  With the press-fit for piston clearance there is enough friction to stop the engine under full load and RPM. After such an occurrence, a tear down will show a polished bore without any aluminum on the cylinder wall or any seize marks on the piston. This is another reason that I believe in running a lot of good oil in the fuel.

Most lubricants cannot hold up to the tremendous heat generated in the areas where the piston to cylinder wall clearance has become a press fit, especially in iron sleeve cylinders. The surface temperature on the cylinder wall of an iron sleeve is considerably hotter than the surface of a plated aluminum cylinder wall with the same water jacket design and coolant flow rates. It may only take a second or less to generate enough heat to kill the oil film in these tight areas when the engine is under full load and high RPM and the piston clearance has become a press-fit.

The melted edge on the exhaust side of the piston indicates high exhaust temperatures. Ignition timing that is too retarded or an air/fuel mixture that is too lean in the RPM range where the engine was operating when the failure occurred will cause high exhaust temperatures. In this situation I would guess that the high exhaust temp. was due to a lean condition.

The under side of the piston shows that the piston crown has been operating near it’s thermal limit for some time. Oil and fuel vapors in the crankcase are in constant contact with the underside of the piston. Coking is a process that occurs when the temperature of a hydrocarbon liquid is raised to the point that a carbon like substance is formed. Anytime the underside of the piston reaches the coking temperature of the fuel/oil vapors, some of the vapors coke and start forming a carbon like substance on the underside of the piston crown. When the underside temperatures decrease the coking stops but previous carbon or discoloration remain.

The discoloration occurs where the temperatures are the highest. The discoloration usually starts in the center of the piston and moves toward the outer edge of the piston as the piston crown temperature increases. The bottom side of the piston will not instantly turn black if the piston crown temperature is raised high enough for a few seconds to cause the piston crown to “sag”. The discoloration takes a while to form as very thin layers form on top of each other until the color is black.

Engines that are only used for 300 ft. drag racing will not usually have the underside of the piston colored black. The underside of the piston is not usually hot enough long enough for the much discoloration to occur. Drag racers that only race the sand hills and spend 10 to 15 seconds under full throttle will often see the center of the piston black but the black will seldom reach the outer edge of the piston.

Engines (Dune bikes, Desert racers, Short track engines, and Moto-Cross) that are well tuned and run under prolonged ½ to full throttle with short periods of off throttle will usually have more discoloration on the under side of the piston than high horse power engines that are only at full throttle for 5 seconds or less then shut down.


In summary for the pistons in the Photos:

The piston crown temperature has been knocking on deaths door for some time. The piston temperature the last 5 to 10 seconds of life finally reached point that the piston clearance turned into a press-fit.  The heat generated in the areas where the press-fit occurred created enough friction to melt the surface of the piston making the seize marks on the piston and stopping engine rotation.  This engine/piston has approached death many times but the operating conditions changed in the nick of time to let it continue to live.  I would estimate that the piston crown temperature has been on deaths door for an accumulated time of at least 15 minutes or more.

Things to do to reduce piston crown temperatures:

1. Reduce the amount of time the engine is held at wide-open throttle at any one time.

2. Eliminate ANY detonation the engine may be experiencing.

3. Increase the main jet size and or richen the needle.

4. Decrease the pipe restriction by improving the exhaust flow through the stinger and muffler.

5. Give the engine a few more seconds rest between periods of full throttle.

6. Increase the efficiency of the radiator to lower the average coolant temperatures.

7. Operate the engine in a manner for which the engine is designed. This means not to operate the engine in the RPM range after the power peak for more than a second or two. It is Ok to rev the engine into the RPM after the power peak when going through the gears but avoid operating the engine in this RPM range when the gearing is wrong and you are over-revved on a top speed pass or running it up a long steep sand hill and needing to shift to the next higher gear. Prolonged operation of the engine in the RPM range past the power peak can cause piston crown overheating due to insufficient exhaust port flow and insufficient scavenging inside the cylinder.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 07:42:06 PM by Jerry Hall »

Offline GO OVRIT

distorted a piston
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2014, 11:30:57 PM »
Thanks, that is some good reading.  Very informative.   I spent good money on this engine and still considered it to be my "new" engine. I hadn't really thought about it, but since we built our new track I've spent a lot of time in over rev trying to figure it out.   I've been recently thinking about a new pipe and silencer.   I am  concerned about your comments about the cylinder not being perfectly round and true.

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38