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Author Topic: motor rebuild thread  (Read 33018 times)

Offline fearlessfred

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2014, 07:06:30 PM »
tony save four for me

Offline Jerry Hall

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2014, 09:17:02 PM »
Quote from: udontknowme;34839
     
honestly i would stick with honda badged bearings and seals and gaskets. only  because its a guessing game what youll get in the aftermarket kits. sometimes trying to save a couple dollars can bite you later.



You will always get the bearing with the right internal clearance when you buy OEM ball bearings.  

The dimension where the balls and rollers ride in the inner and outer races have the same dimensions for the majority of the common internal bearing clearances.  The clearance is adjusted by the size of the balls and rollers.  C3 bearings have bigger balls than C4 bearings.  Bearings with a C3 clearance is tighter than a bearing with a C4 clearance.

So what am I trying to say.  

The number on the outside of an OEM bearing does not always reflect the actual internal clearance of the bearing.

Why?

OEM purchasing agents are always looking for deals on bearings or occasionally needing  large quantities of bearings on short notice.  

Sometimes bearing manufactures are in the middle of a production run of let say bearings that have the dimensions needed for main bearings on the ends of a crankshaft.  The bearings have already been marked with a part number that designates a C3 internal clearance.  An engine manufacture calls up their bearing manufacturer and says I need 5000  bearings with a C4 internal clearance.  The bearing manufacturer says it will be a month before we make a run on the requested bearings that will be marked as C4 bearings. The bearing manufacturer says "We already have 10,000 inner and outer races made and marked with part numbers designating a C3 clearance but have not been assembled."  "We can put the C4 balls in the races but the part number will not reflect the true internal clearance."  The engine manufacture says that is ok, we just need C4 bearings and do not care what numbers are on the bearing.
 
The engine manufacture assembles 4000 new engines with the C4 bearings marked C3 and puts the other 1000 bearings into the replacement parts network.  Years later someone is rebuilding their engine and goes to the motorcycle dealer to buy a set of main bearings and the dealer wants $40.00 per bearing.  The owner is trying to do the job as cheap as possible so he takes the old bearing to the local bearing warehouses or calls one of the discount bearing suppliers online and they set him up with a new set of C3 bearings that are made by the same manufacturer that made the OEM bearings.  A couple of middlemen have been eliminated and the bearings cost $20.00 per bearing and have the same part numbers on the bearing as the OEM bearing.

The owner assembles the engine and it runs for a short while and the main bearings fails.  He figures he may have done something wrong assembling the engine because this was his first rebuild.  He did not know that the bearing he installed was a C3 and should have been a C4.  It  would have been a C4 bearing regardless of what was printed on the outside of the bearing had he bought the OEM main bearings from his local motorcycle dealer.

I have seen the above scenario occur more than once with customers.  Early in my career it happened to me trying to save some customers some money on their rebuilds.

Offline udontknowme

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2014, 11:45:17 PM »
Quote from: GO OVRIT;34844
I checked around a couple places and the price of rebuilding a honda crank with a new rod was more than buying a new hot rods crank.  I have had a couple hot rods and never had any problems.

you didnt check around very well. prox rod is $100. rebuild labor is $100. and round trip shipping.  youll be in the $250ish neighbor hood. hotrods assembly is about the same price.

until recently the hotrods was made in taiwan. aparently the rod is now made in usa but the crankwheels are still from taiwan i believe. im not saying hotrods is total junk but im not convinced its on par with the honda stuff. and for the same price why not put honda stuff back in. if your worried about the tins then have someone weld em
to much power is almost enough

Offline udontknowme

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2014, 11:59:55 PM »
Quote from: kidder86;34832
thinking about a wiesce rod in the stock crank, Pro-x piston and the all balls crank bearings and seal kit, the all balls are supposed to be koyo bearings.


wiseco crank and rod are timebomb with a short fuse. if you cut corners now you pay for it later


to much power is almost enough

Offline kidder86

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2014, 06:03:18 AM »
thanks for the good info on the bearings. I will double check but I think my crank shop charges $50 for a crank rebuild. def going to stay away from the wiseco  cranks

Offline GO OVRIT

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2014, 07:32:38 AM »
Quote from: udontknowme;34882
you didnt check around very well. prox rod is $100. rebuild labor is $100. and round trip shipping.  youll be in the $250ish neighbor hood. hotrods assembly is about the same price.

until recently the hotrods was made in taiwan. aparently the rod is now made in usa but the crankwheels are still from taiwan i believe. im not saying hotrods is total junk but im not convinced its on par with the honda stuff. and for the same price why not put honda stuff back in. if your worried about the tins then have someone weld em


I was told anywhere from 250 to 300 plus shipping 2 ways.  You can find hotrods for 190 with free shipping.   Noe that hotrods has a good reputation,  I feel more comfortable running one of their new cranks than running a crank rebuilt with nearly 30 year old parts with unknown histories.  I don't know how many times it's been pressed apart and puf back together, run extremely hot, had the threads over torqued or the bearing journals worn/repaired.  Plus there are only a few shops that really know how to rebuild one properly.  I'm definitely no expert,  just my thoughts.

Offline udontknowme

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2014, 01:23:59 PM »
thats a valid point. on a unknown engine its hard to say what the crank went through over the years. a thorough inspection should be able to determine if its safe to reuse but replacing it with a new unit is another option for guys that choose to do so.  

crankworks is one of the few places i would trust with a crank and their labor is $100. rod of pretty much any brand is around $100. plus round trip ship. just for the record.

250-300 without shipp ?  that must of been what coc quoted. i wouldnt send my lawnmower to that guy :carlos:
to much power is almost enough

Offline kidder86

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2014, 02:48:15 PM »
thanks for the heads up on the cranks, will have to get the crank inspected. The machine shop I use is Iantomasi in Ontario. If your not sure who they are check them out, they are big into snowmobiles and do all the machine work onsite and hold world records for snowmobile drags. they have rebuilt many cranks and the 250r should be no different. I have since ordered the cr500 8 ball crank bearings. My real only question is I would like to know the major advantages and disadvantages to running the 3mm vs 3/16" cylinder spacer plate. I have seen both recommended for my setup and would like to know why both are being recommended.
thanks

Offline Jerry Hall

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2014, 01:03:03 AM »
Quote from: kidder86;34669
Just had my trx blow a hole through the piston :( so now I am tearing down the motor to rebuild it. My plans are to ask for help deciding what to do to this motor. I plan on leaving the cylinder stock and the rod stock. I don't race just play in the trails so large power isn't as big of a concern as reliability. I plan on getting the crank rebuilt with a long rod ( 87 +) and new crank bearings. I am a bit on the fence on what year of piston and cylinder to use as I have both styles. Check out the one pic, there seems like something is going on in the bottom of the crank case, any ideas?? Not sure why it leaned out and blew a hole in the piston. running a pj38 175 main dgh needle mid clip and 52 pilot jet.  Feel free to chime in and give your opinion and ask questions.






The first picture of the piston shows abnormally high exhaust temperature.  High exhaust temperature is usually the result of one or more of the following.  Not enough fuel in the air that the engine is consuming, retarded ignition timing and sometimes an exhaust system that is over restricted.

A lean air/fuel mixture can be a result of a partially restricted jet, a jet that is too small, air entering the engine through some path other than through the carb or using old fuel.  Fuel looses some of it's heating value as the light chemicals in the fuel evaporate.  Evaporation occurs when fuel sets in the fuel tank or is stored in a container that is not ABSOLUTELY AIR TIGHT.

Fuel loses some of it's heating value every day it sits in a vented fuel tank. PLASTIC GAS JUGS are not air tight enough to keep the chemicals from escaping from the fuel and gas jug.  If the bike sits in the sun or where the temperature is high ,the heating value of the fuel goes down quickly.  Old fuel will run lean and raise the exhaust temperature just like decreasing the jet size.  

A sheared woodruff key on the flywheel can advance or retarded the ignition timing.  Advance ignition timing can cause detonation and retarded ignition timing will raise the exhaust temperature just like having jets that are too small of a main jet.  

I do not recommend running 87-octane pump gas in these engines even if it only has a pipe on a stock engine.

Rust on the crank is a sign moisture was getting into the engine.  The most common cause of moisture getting into the engine, is leaving water in the exhaust system after washing or starting the engine with a wet air filter after washing.  The needles in the connecting rod and the main bearings probably also have rust on them.
 
The seize marks on the upper half of the piston is expected when the top of the piston was hot enough to melt.

Offline kidder86

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2014, 04:16:44 PM »
All decisions are made for this build. Going with a 67mm 86 style pro-x piston,86 cylinder( turns out it has a decent port cleanup) long wiesco con rod in stock crank, 8 ball cr500 crank bearings, 3mm spacer plate. going to do the UCCR and solder squish, prob run a race gas mix, will have to see whats around here for gas options. will post pics along the way

Offline kidder86

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2014, 09:57:19 PM »
Thanks for the write up, Im starting to think it was the 87 octane gas that caused this problem. Lesson learned. just got my cr500 crank bearings and they were $96.50 Canadian from the dealer after tax.

Offline udontknowme

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2014, 10:29:04 PM »
if i were you i wouldnt touch that wiseco rod with a 100' foot pole . but if you insist i hear they do stand behind the product so when it blows a hole in your cases they might buy you new ones
to much power is almost enough

Offline Jerry Hall

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2014, 12:31:14 AM »
Quote from: udontknowme;35660
if i were you i wouldnt touch that wiseco rod with a 100' foot pole . but if you insist i hear they do stand behind the product so when it blows a hole in your cases they might buy you new ones

If the rod breaks and blows a hole in your cases, they might give you another con rod and a Wiseco T shirt.  They are not going to give you any cases, new or old.

Don't ware the T shirt because you are going to need it to stuff it in the hole in the cases.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 11:17:23 AM by Jerry Hall »

Offline kidder86

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2014, 05:39:21 AM »
I thought it was just the crankshafts that were garbage??

Offline udontknowme

motor rebuild thread
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2014, 11:06:04 AM »
The whole thing is made in China
to much power is almost enough

 

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