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Author Topic: APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363  (Read 33521 times)

Offline Pumashine

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2014, 09:56:37 PM »
Quote from: Burns363R;44370
It had the standard sma one on the other scale they used I think. Mine came with a 78 and 76 rod to. My carb was used and the previous owner gave up. I ran the stock needle and then went straight to the 76
 Thanks, I am not familiar the the # system being used. It looks like the smaller the number the more fuel is allowed to go to the motor. I understand big cylinders pull more air and can use smaller jets.
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline udontknowme

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2014, 10:56:47 PM »
Quote from: Burns363R;44177

http://youtu.be/lBFdg-jGZ98?list=UURhJ3oFnLARwWYVG9fDuWKQ


from 1:02 to about 1:30 was that  full throttle ?  also on every plug chop ive ever tried it left a distinct burn mark on the ground strap, usually near the bend or slightly before it going towards the base. i dont see that burn mark in any of these pictures
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 11:12:04 PM by udontknowme »
to much power is almost enough

Offline Burns363R

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2014, 11:19:39 PM »
No i worked the throttle several times in where the trees are at.
TRX 363R 02- Laeger Narrow Frame/CR500 Link, Motowoz Suspension, Roll Design +4 LT Arms,RPM Dominator +4 axle, LED 363 MX, LED 350G Pipe, 38 A/S CR Ignition

TRX 370R 86- Laeger Std,ISF-No Link Swinger, JD MGC LT Arms) Motowoz Shocks, LED 370/350D pipe, 38 PWK Carb, CR Ignition

Offline udontknowme

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2014, 11:36:51 PM »
actually it was more like 1:20-1:35 or so in the open area. sounds like its not reving out all the way but i wasnt sure if it was full throttle or not
to much power is almost enough

Offline Jerry Hall

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2014, 11:57:59 PM »
Quote from: Burns363R;44352
I noticed at WOT in 6th gear i can hit top speed at half throttle, any more throttle and it bogs, or doesnt pick up RPM per say.

What RPM does your engine make it's peak power?

What RPM is your engine turning in 6th gear while you are going down the turn row at WOT?

Offline Jerry Hall

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2014, 04:29:15 PM »
Quote from: Jerry Hall;44384
What RPM does your engine make it's peak power?

What RPM is your engine turning in 6th gear while you are going down the turn row at WOT?

I ask this question because I suspect that your gearing is way off for the amount of power your engine is making and having the need to run it at sustained top speed.  

A big bore kit will go the same speed as a 250 if they are both turning 7500 RPM with the same gearing and tires,  providing both engines have enough power to overcome the rolling resistance and aerodynamic resistance at that RPM.  

The majority of the highly modified two strokes need a lot less fuel once they go pass the RPM where they make their peak power.  Mikuni carburetors have an adjustable air correction jet that can help this problem but the Keihin dirt bike carburetors (PJ, PWK, PWM and Air Strikers) do not have this nice feature.  Even when the air correction jet is properly tuned, it cannot make the abrupt fueling change needed to properly lean the mixture in the RPM range past the power peak. I suspect that you may be expecting the smart carb to do something magical and provide this abrupt fueling change that the Lectron, Mikuni, Keihin or any of the other non electronically controlled carburetors have not been able to do.  I do not see anything in the Smart Carb design that would allow it to make this abrupt fueling change.

Like Dave RSS396 said in an earlier post, some of the 250 moto-cross and road racing two strokes had electronically controlled power jets.  The power jet is turned on typically around 6000 RPM and operates in tandem with the main jet at WOT up to the RPM range where the power peak occurs.  Once the engine reaches a RPM in the region where the power peak occurs, the power jet is shut off and the resulting mixture is much leaner.  A fuel curve shape like the one just described, fits the fueling requirements of the majority of high performance two-stokes much better than what conventional carburetors can provide.  

Most two stroke engines can be a little rich in the RPM range before the power peak without appreciably affecting the power in this range.  A two stroke that is rich after the power peak will not rev and may have a rich miss-fire.  The majority of the highly modified two-strokes I have worked with will be too lean in the  RPM range before the power peak if we install a main jet that supplies the correct amount of fuel in the RPM region past the power peak. An engine that has the mixture correct in the RPM range past the power peak will have good over-rev and will run clean in this RPM range.

Knowing these facts forces us to make a choice of how we tune our carburetors, gear our bikes and then ride our bikes. Once we make these tuning and gearing choices we must ride our bikes in a manner for which it was tuned.

Tuning state #1.
If we ride our bikes on a closed course track where we never reach a speed in top gear where the engine will need to rev past the power peak, we can install a main jet that will produce the best power and acceleration up to an a few hundred RPM past the power peak.  If we take this engine package and gearing and try to run it WOT in top gear where it will try to rev a 1000 RPM or so past the power peak, it will probably have a rich miss-fire in that highly over-reved RPM range.  

Tuning State #2
If we decide to take our closed course bike and not change the gearing and just run it WOT in 6 gear we can usually lean the main jet and get a few more MPH and not hurt the engine.  With this leaner main jet the engine will probably be too lean in the RPM range before the power peak and we may hurt a piston if we ride it with these carburetor setting on a closed course or pull a hill where the engine is pulled down to the RPM range below the power peak.

Tuning State #3
If we want to do most of our running at top speed and get our highest top speed, we can use our carburetor setting and maybe richen it up a jet or two over what we used in tuning state #1, providing we take enough teeth off of the axle sprocket or add teeth to the counter shaft sprocket so that when we run it WOT in 6th gear, the engine peaks or does not have enough power to pull no more than a hundred RPM or so past the power peak.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 11:32:52 PM by Jerry Hall »

Offline Pumashine

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2014, 12:40:09 PM »
Quote from: Burns363R;44363
Leaner.  I ran a 76 today and it was lean. I'm going back to a 74 for more testing tomorrow.  Corey told me they have a 72 now so I may end up there.  We'll see. I want to dominate the harescramble sunday.
Ran the 76 on Sunday. May be too rich at WOT but I wanted to make sure I was not damaging my Piston. First pass it was loading up and the pics was too dark. Second pass was good heres the best pic.

This was the first pass
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline StrokedAZ

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2014, 10:14:43 PM »
:popcorn:
86 TRX 250R

Offline Pumashine

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2014, 10:23:31 PM »
Quote from: StrokedAZ;44557
:popcorn:
Hell yes I bought another one. If you don't get a smart carb you are missing the 250r reality check. You thought your bike was cool. Now it can be simply amazing!!!!!!!! Ask Kyle or Ryan, they are racing and can tell you what you have been missing!!!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 11:04:09 PM by Pumashine »
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline Trusty2stroke

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2014, 12:02:07 AM »
I dont wanna hijack the thread. I have been seriously considering placing an order and you guys almost have me sold; but is the fuel efficiency really that much better as claimed by APT? I know its not usually a priority with these bikes but I do go on some wicked long trail rides and would sure like to get some better mpg's lol.
Put that hammer down and give it hell!!

Offline StrokedAZ

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2014, 12:08:56 AM »
Tony, these threads are why I joined this forum. I think its great people are still making stuff for our rides and that some of us have the guts( and $$) to try them out and are willing to share the knowledge with the rest of us. Sometimes when I read what Jerry writes I can actually feel the exact moment my head starts to expand lol

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk
86 TRX 250R

Offline toydoc

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2014, 04:17:29 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Hall;44399
Most two stroke engines can be a little rich in the RPM range before the power peak without appreciably affecting the power in this range.  A two stroke that is rich after the power peak will not rev and may have a rich miss-fire.  The majority of the highly modified two-strokes I have worked with will be too lean in the  RPM range before the power peak if we install a main jet that supplies the correct amount of fuel in the RPM region past the power peak. An engine that has the mixture correct in the RPM range past the power peak will have good over-rev and will run clean in this RPM range.

Knowing these facts forces us to make a choice of how we tune our carburetors, gear our bikes and then ride our bikes. Once we make these tuning and gearing choices we must ride our bikes in a manner for which it was tuned.

Tuning state #1.
If we ride our bikes on a closed course track where we never reach a speed in top gear where the engine will need to rev past the power peak, we can install a main jet that will produce the best power and acceleration up to an a few hundred RPM past the power peak.  If we take this engine package and gearing and try to run it WOT in top gear where it will try to rev a 1000 RPM or so past the power peak, it will probably have a rich miss-fire in that highly over-reved RPM range.  

Tuning State #2
If we decide to take our closed course bike and not change the gearing and just run it WOT in 6 gear we can usually lean the main jet and get a few more MPH and not hurt the engine.  With this leaner main jet the engine will probably be too lean in the RPM range before the power peak and we may hurt a piston if we ride it with these carburetor setting on a closed course or pull a hill where the engine is pulled down to the RPM range below the power peak.

Tuning State #3
If we want to do most of our running at top speed and get our highest top speed, we can use our carburetor setting and maybe richen it up a jet or two over what we used in tuning state #1, providing we take enough teeth off of the axle sprocket or add teeth to the counter shaft sprocket so that when we run it WOT in 6th gear, the engine peaks or does not have enough power to pull no more than a hundred RPM or so past the power peak.

Cool stuff Jerry. What would really drive your point is if you could dig up a 250R dyno graph. Overlay a tad rich run to leaner side run, show hp shift with no real dip in peak hp. Then arrows in the hp graph for "You are here, Tuning State #1, Tuning State #2, Tuning State #3.

That would be a good visual

Offline Pumashine

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2014, 10:00:16 AM »
Quote from: Trusty2stroke;44568
I dont wanna hijack the thread. I have been seriously considering placing an order and you guys almost have me sold; but is the fuel efficiency really that much better as claimed by APT?
 No unburnt fuel go out the exhaust is what I am guessing you are referring to. So yes, it does make the bike fuel efficient. Whats funny is I know our bikes are plagued with black sludge leaking out the exhaust flange. Well this carb should fix that problem. No need for a thicker gasket cause no unburnt fuel goes out the pipe. I don't think Kyle minds the replies here. We are waiting for him to get a richer metering rod priority mail.
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline Jerry Hall

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2014, 06:21:13 PM »
Quote from: toydoc;44574
Cool stuff Jerry. What would really drive your point is if you could dig up a 250R dyno graph. Overlay a tad rich run to leaner side run, show hp shift with no real dip in peak hp. Then arrows in the hp graph for "You are here, Tuning State #1, Tuning State #2, Tuning State #3.

That would be a good visual


I will try to find some dyno runs that are examples of of what I have been talking about.

Offline Jerry Hall

APT Smart Carb Testing today 40mm Billet Sphynx 363
« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2014, 09:54:23 PM »
I started looking for some dyno runs as examples to some of the situations I have been talking about.  This may take a while to find exact examples because the dyno this computer is hooked up to has over  22,000 dyno runs on it and I have four dynos with their own computers and dyno runs.  I have not tried to import files or pictures to this site so I may need some help displaying the information.

The first group of runs I want to post shows the effect of having a main jet that is rich (run 013) but not rich enough to miss-fire at the extreme high rpm range.  There are a couple of runs that are a little rich (run 010, 016) and a run (run 007) that has the main jet for max power.  This engine is in a very mild state of tune and very forgiving on its response to different main jets.

Make note that the front side of the curve in the 5000 to 6500 range is not affected very much by being a little rich.  Having the mixture correct after the torque peak tends to produce the most peak power and better power after the torque peak allowing the engine to make the best power over the widest rpm range.  These curves are not exactly what I was looking for but are a close approximation to the situation described in tuning state #1 above.  





If we look closely the 178 main jet produces the best power in the 5000 to 6750 range and the 170 main jet produces the most peak and the best over run power. A carburetor with an adjustable air correction jet could probably be tuned so that one main jet with the proper air correction jet could produce a power curve that would give the front side of the curve of the 178 main jet and the power after the torque peak that the 170 main jet produced with the 39PWK.





Click on this:  It gives the run number, jet size and line color.  I am sorry the lines of the graph are so skinny and pale, it makes it difficult to see the distinct line colors.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 12:37:29 AM by Jerry Hall »

 

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