Need port work and head cutting who to use?

[sangheraent]

ok so I had a full race motor built by a no name shop in oregon that was suppose to be the best and after 2 years of trying to figure out why it runs like shit I realized the motor is built like garbage and is fighting itself.

so I need to get my cylinder reported hopefully it can be repaired to a degree looking to get a midrange mx port and a head cut. I am really highly considering sending my motor to redline but they are really dune specific want more of an mx port.


please don't suggest big dog toys motorsports.

[xTHUNDERCATx]

Just a side question what actually makes you say it was built like garbage? If you want local I wouldnt hesitate to go with redline, if not Neil (C-Leigh racing) would be my first choice for a bottom end motor.

[Jerry Hall]

ok so I had a full race motor built by a no name shop in oregon that was suppose to be the best and after 2 years of trying to figure out why it runs like shit I realized the motor is built like garbage and is fighting itself.

so I need to get my cylinder reported hopefully it can be repaired to a degree looking to get a midrange mx port and a head cut. I am really highly considering sending my motor to redline but they are really dune specific want more of an mx port.


please don't suggest big dog toys motorsports.

What type of riding will this engine package be used for?  What pipe and silencer do you have?  What size and brand of carb do you have?  What reeds and ignition do you have?  What type of air filter do you have?

We have guys bring us engines with similar complaints or problems like you stated above on a weekly basis.  The above questions should be the first questions a builder ask a potential customer when the customer calls him about doing any type of performance work.  If the builder DOES NOT ask these questions first you are taking your stuff to someone that does not know what it takes to build the type of performance package you are asking for.  Engine builders that do the required testing to build engines with different power characteristics will always ask these questions first.

A MX engine, a trail engine or drag engine requires more than just a different port job and different head design.

Performance engine building could be compared to cooking.  A good cook will have a place where he keeps his recipes that he has developed over time just like a good engine builder will have a place where he keeps his recipes (specifications, dimensions, of all of the components that are required to build the engine package and give the power characteristics the customer is paying for).  

If you are wanting to bake a batch oatmeal cookies and a batch of chocolate chip cookies, the cook does not use all of the same base ingredients and then mix oatmeal into the base ingredients in one pan and chocolate chips into the other pan expecting to get the anticipated results. ........... A good engine builder will not usually use the same carb, pipe, etc on all of his engine builds and just use different porting and head specifications.

Customers would spend a lot less money and get more for their money if they would ask us what pipe, carb, etc they will need before they send us their cylinders to port.  Often they do not have the components that will compliment the type of porting they are asking for.  Many times we cannot fix the mess that novice builders have created or be able to guarantee the performance characteristics of the engine package they want us to build because they are not willing to change the wrong components they have already purchased.  

Again........We are like cooks.  the cook cannot bake you oatmeal cookies if there is not any oatmeal in the box of ingredients you bring him to use

[sangheraent]

well I got the motor and the builder told me to run all my parts Vforce2 reeds, sparks mx pipe, cr250 ignition, 38 a/s. I got the motor and it had no power its a 4mill 72mm cylinder so a 310. The bike revved good sounded perfectly fine but had no power. I called the guy he said well your running the wrong reeds we like to run stock. Im like when I built it I told you what I wanted to run and you were suppose to build it to that. So I put stock reeds in and it lost power, I went back and forth with this guy like 6 times and got the bike to run about 10% better on my own without his input.

So I took it to the dunes and it was throwing plugs and acting like I was hitting the rev limiter I took it to the builders shop he told me to run race fuel. Well that was my number 1 requirement I did not want to run race fuel (race fuel is super expensive in Canada). So I put in racefuel and the bike ran normal but lost to a race to a bone stock yfz. The bike also consumed half the fuel the yfz did.

I complained once more was told everything I was givin the run around some more and just got fed up. I talked to a couple people who know this builder very well and apparently this dude cannot port worth a lick, and judging but the lack of power this bike has on a big bore cylinder im assuming he did nothing to it.

Made a lot of claims.

anyway looking to get it fixed.

[Rupp250]

Dont take this the wrong way, but before sending it off to another shop, do you have something to compare it to. As in another similar 250r. Or have someone that has lots of 250r experience ride it and give you their feedback.
I've never had redline do work, but several people that I know have not been impressed with the way he sets up motors. This is from builders and just enthusiasts. I wouldn't be afraid to call Arlan, Neil, or Jerry for what you are wanting. Also talk to Brandon at Wildcard racing in Utah. If you do tell him Russell from Cali sent you. He may charge you extra though.

[Tbone07]

I think another question you have to ask yourself is how much power do you want to make?

Ever gotten the bike dyno'd to see what HP it's making currently? Then another builder can tell you if it's under-performing or not.

A solid 310 should get you above the 50hp mark pretty easily

Comparing power to other bikes (especially a 450 4-stroke) isn't a good way to judge if the bike is running poorly or not

[xTHUNDERCATx]

May have a tough time with Wildcard. I need to sweet talk him just to get him to work on my banshee he built. Thats interesting I have seen a couple of redline's bikes run and the few I did see ran hard, I actually wanted to take the dune bike to him if Brandon isnt able to do it. But I don't have first hand experience with Redline so I'd take Russell's advise over mine Sangheraent.

[sangheraent]

I had a stock stroke 262 motor in the same frame before this motor. I had a stock motor in a stock frame before that.  It was neck and neck with the that same yzf with the 262 motor. Now my 310 is losing to it. He did nothing to his bike.

I should also mention the reason I know the builder is all talk and no skill, a friend had his yfz450 motor built by the same shop and he is neck and neck with me both of us 2-3 bike lengths behind the stock yfz.

If you think maybe that yfz is not stock, well we ride in a group of 8 and all the bikes have some mods some more then others but we use the bone stock one as a baseline. The other yfz was 2nd fastest in the group now tied for dead last.

I'm no stranger to setting up a bike although I could be better I have ruled out every other option my bore is perfect compression is fine pipe and reeds are all perfect spark is strong only thing that doesn't add up is the characteristics of the dome and the cylinders porting.

I prefer to deal with someone who is 250r specific and more leaned towards mx motors I don't know if neil is still doing work been away from this site for a long time.

[2ndmoto]

LED. Arlan has a pretty high pedigree with 250rs. All the pro riders he supported back in the 80's and 90's. He is all about MX and xc

Best regards
-Jason

[udontknowme]

i wouldnt even bother sending it to someone that doesnt have a fair bit of experience with 250r. maybe they have done a thousand kawasakis but still i wouldnt send it to them. alot of shops do work on specific engines and if they only did a handful of 250r then your results will probly be just as bad as the first guy you used. i think your only good choices are led, jerry hall and cliegh. i wouldnt even fool with anybody else. ya maybe theres other shops that could do a good job but youll be better off with a trusted name thats been around the block a few times

also you have to watch out for them new shops popping up. sometimes they are guys with little experience on any kind of engine. theyre only trying to get their name out there and make a few bucks from unsuspecting customers. basically what these new shops do is pay for port jobs from other shops then copy the work and sell it as their own. problem with this is if you have a problem and call for advice they wont have any idea how to help because all they did was try to mimic someone elses work. sounds like this may be the situation your in now. dude had no idea how to help you because he dont understand these engines so he just started grasping at straws in hopes that one of his suggestions would fix your problem. if i was in your shoes and the shop told me the engine was down on power because i wasnt using a stock reed valve then a huge red flag would go up. most likely he had the ports all screwed up or something

i forgot to say something. do you know how to tune the engine. even with the best engine work you still have to tune it correctly. not saying it was your fault

[JesseA420]

it was throwing plugs and acting like I was hitting the rev limiter

sounds like you also have tuning issues.

do not base your performance off of some other 4 stroke bike with nothing in common, there is way too many variables, clutching, final gearing etc.

just contact one of the reputable builders already mentioned in this thread, after hearing what your needs are, any one of them are capable of giving you what you want.

[rablack21]

I agree with what these guys said about how you judge performance. It may not be the best method of testing and tuning. With that said, in you defense, the first red flag I see is that builder telling you that your problems are due to you running the wrong reeds, and especially saying you need the stock ones at that. This is just ridiculous. This tells me he has no idea what he is doing. The 2nd red flag is him telling you to run race fuel after you had problems. He should have known upfront when he built the motor whether it would need race fuel or not based on the way HE built the engine! They fact that he built the engine and didn't know it would need race fuel also tells me he doesn't know what he's doing. Any good engine builder doesn't come upon this by accident.
In order to get a grip on what you have, you need to measure the port timing of the cylinder to see how it was ported. This will give you an idea of how he ported the cylinder. You also need to measure the cc of the dome you are using. If you don't know how to do this, I would send it to a builder who does. I also recommend Neil (Cleigh) and Arlan.

Don't take this the wrong way, as this is just my personal opinion, but I would believe that a stroked 310 with the upgrades you have on it might still have a difficult time beating a YFZ in a straight line drag race. I am also assuming all other things being equal (traction, gearing, rider weight, rider skill, etc) of course. Traction is a biggie on 2 strokes. When it comes to traction, you work hard to find it on a 2 stroke, it comes factory on a 4stroke. LOL Not to mention, you are only assuming the YFZ to be stock. Just some food for thought.

[Jerry Hall]

I think another question you have to ask yourself is how much power do you want to make?

Ever gotten the bike dyno'd to see what HP it's making currently? Then another builder can tell you if it's under-performing or not.

A solid 310 should get you above the 50hp mark pretty easily

Comparing power to other bikes (especially a 450 4-stroke) isn't a good way to judge if the bike is running poorly or not

If he has had it dynoed, he should post the power and torque curve.  

I can look at the curves and get good idea what has been done to the ports and how well all of his components are working together.  


A stock YFZ 450 will usually make about 38 hp on my dyno. Depending upon the specifications of the components used, a well built YFZ 450 with a big carb, big valves, port work, cams, special intake will usually make 52 to 57 on my dyno.  A big bore/stroker YFZ 450 will make low 50s to low 60s depending upon what was done and who built it.  

An unported Pro X or ESR 310 cylinder will usually make around 37 to 45 depending upon the pipe and carb used.  A well built 310 depending upon the shape of the torque curve, can make low to high 50s on my dyno.

[Langbolt]

SANGHERAENT - Where about in Canada are you ? I may have a few good suggestions that are close by.

[brokeass]

After those awesome responses on here when you aren't even a customer yet I would send that motor straight to Jerry Hall if you do end up using a new builder