TRX250r.org

Author Topic: This Could Be The End!  (Read 17354 times)

Offline F-Red

This Could Be The End!
« on: April 29, 2015, 10:08:04 AM »
I've come to the realization, maybe I'm not to own one of this fine machines. All my life, I wanted to own the infamous TRX250R. At the age of 46, my dream came true. Found a nice clean machine in Maryland. Brought her home and for a year was Happy! Happy! Then I started to purchase aftermarket cylinders, and the trouble begins. The first 330 had overheating issues. 3 pistons, until I found the water passages around the exhaust side, were tiny little slivers. Fixed that and away I go. Now comes to the current 350. Three nice heat cycles and two short little trips up and down the road, I have this galling building up already. So now we buy more pistons until I find, what the FUK happen this time? It's getting old and expensive. My 450R is a blessing! No problems like this POS. I'm on the ledge! I don't know if I'm coming back in. :upset:

Want To See My Wieners?

Offline Rupp250

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2015, 10:37:43 AM »
[video=youtube;6SYR1THGEE4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SYR1THGEE4[/video]

Its too tight
DRAG- Puma in a Ziggy Chassis
TRAIL -86  250R ported stock cylinder
DUNER -86 250R  Flinstone

Offline mandom250r

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2015, 10:52:10 AM »
You have the same problem as my buddy. Hes the only local friend i have that has a 250r and cant get it running right. When i met him he had a ESR 310 and now i hooked him up with a ESR 370 and still cant figure it out. Hes payed shops to tune it with no luck and they still take his money. Hes gone through a couple pistons and still keeps riding it all messed up. I think he worst part is he lets people ride it that dont even know how to ride. I keep telling him to let me have it for a while so i can play with it but he always has an excuse not to bring it over. Hes so frustrated he just wants to sell everything. Hopefully hell change his mind when he gets a chance to ride mine.

Offline Jerry Hall

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2015, 11:07:35 AM »
Quote from: F-Red;53829
I've come to the realization, maybe I'm not to own one of this fine machines. All my life, I wanted to own the infamous TRX250R. At the age of 46, my dream came true. Found a nice clean machine in Maryland. Brought her home and for a year was Happy! Happy! Then I started to purchase aftermarket cylinders, and the trouble begins. The first 330 had overheating issues. 3 pistons, until I found the water passages around the exhaust side, were tiny little slivers. Fixed that and away I go. Now comes to the current 350. Three nice heat cycles and two short little trips up and down the road, I have this galling building up already. So now we buy more pistons until I find, what the FUK happen this time? It's getting old and expensive. My 450R is a blessing! No problems like this POS. I'm on the ledge! I don't know if I'm coming back in. :upset:



Are there seize marks on the carburetor side of the cylinder?  

What was the piston clearance set at?

What pipe and silencer are you using?

What type load had been on the engine the last 15 seconds or so before the seizure?

Heat cycles are a waste of time, especially if your heat cycles are low temperature heat cycles like your piston crown shows.  The stress relieving should be done during the manufacturing of the piston just before the final machining is done.  If the low temperature heat cycles actually relieved stress within the piston to be benificial, the rings would not fit in grooves.  The wrist pin would not rotate in the piston.  The skirts of the piston would not have the proper shape.

Break_in is the period of time while the piston and cylinder wares to the minimum operating clearance necessary for reliable engine operation.  The piston clearance can be set to the minimum operating clearance when we bore a cylinder but as soon as the peaks wear off the tool marks on the piston skirts, the piston clearance will be excessive. Wearing the peaks of the tool marks typically takes from 20 min when using the controlled environment on the dyno or sometimes a couple of hours riding using very brief periods of full throttle initially (2 to 3 seconds) and increasing the periods of full throttle as the break-in period accumulates more and more time.

We have to set the piston clearance on  drag engines to the minimum operating clearance when we bore the cylinders.  The pistons do not usually have enough time on them before they are put under full load to wear the piston to provide the minimum operating clearance.  

If we bore a cylinder and set the piston clearance "tight", more break-in time is required to ware the piston to the same minimum operating clearance that is required in a drag engine.  The advantage of setting up a bore tight is when the minimum operating clearance is finally achieved, more of the tool mark peaks are worn off and the piston wares more slowly from that point forward.  



I do not see what I call "proper port chamfers".   Improper port chamfers will not not cause seized pistons but proper chamfers will make your new piston and rings last longer
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 11:58:14 AM by Jerry Hall »

Offline Pumashine

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2015, 11:33:41 AM »
Seems there is a whole group of 250r guys running 350 cylinders with 250 pipes. They start blaming the pipe. A larger stinger diameter will let the pipe cool your motor down.
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline rablack21

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2015, 11:43:31 AM »
It looks like the piston to bore clearance may have been too tight. Like Jerry asked, do you have similar markings on the carb side? What was your piston clearance set at?

Offline JesseA420

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2015, 12:07:52 PM »
if im not mistaken didnt you buy this complete from eddie? or did you assemble yourself
Quote from: Hawaiiysr;66760
Yup i sucked the head. taste like dirt.

[/FONT]

Offline udontknowme

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2015, 08:20:13 PM »
sometimes its difficult to pin point exactly what went wrong. check your clearances, see if the jet size was in the ballpark, plugged silencer, cooling system working good etc etc.

its a good idea to do everything possible to provide as much lube as you can to the moving parts. might try some type of oil holes in the piston. it certainly couldnt hurt. never hurts to have plenty of oil in the gas either. 32:1 is bare minimum imo. honestly i would even recomend more oil than that but i dont want to start a pissing match
to much power is almost enough

Offline Jerry Hall

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2015, 09:18:43 PM »
Quote from: Pumashine;53834
Seems there is a whole group of 250r guys running 350 cylinders with 250 pipes. They start blaming the pipe. A larger stinger diameter will let the pipe cool your motor down.


I see this every week.  Guys need to wait until they have the money to do it "right".  You will usually have problems if you are trying to upgrade to a big bore cylinder and running mismatched components until you have the money to purchase the rest of the necessary components

My experience has been that putting a larger stinger and muffler core on a 250 pipe that was developed for the OEM cylinders is often a band aid . Less restriction on the outlet of the pipe will help keep the piston temperature reasonable on hard pulls but will often not make the power that a pipe that was specifically designed and tested for the big bore cylinders and porting being used.  

Even though the same basic molds appear to be used on the Pro X 310s, 330s, 350s, and ESR family of big bore castings, the scavenging ports effective discharge angles and areas change when a given casting is machined for a different bore size.  Cylinders that scavenge differently and have different displacements need different pipes to match the unique scavenging patters of the different groups of displacements.

Old pipe formulas and pipe software used one size of stinger for 125cc engines, another size stinger for 250s and so on without regard to how much power the engines made.  The amount of exhaust being pushed through a given diameter stinger is a function of the power being made.  If your big bore cylinder makes significantly more power than a good running 250, the 250 pipe is more than likely going to be two restrictive and piston overheating WILL occur.

I think that it is the engine builders/parts supplier DUTY to inform the customer as to what pipe, porting, head, carb, reeds etc. and starting point on jetting they should be using for a given engine package.  If the engine builder cannot furnish this information you need to go to builder or supplier that can. This knowledge only comes from expensive testing on the engine builders part. If you are following all of your builders recommendations for engine package components and tuning specifications and are still having problems....you need a builders that has done the necessary testing and development. A customer should not have to go through a handful of $150.00 pistons to work out the bugs that was in a engine package that was supposed to be already developed.  

Customers often shoot themselves in the foot trying to select their engine package components themselves rather than finding a builder and following his recommendations to a "T". I have some customers that do not listen to my recommendations and use the wrong pipe, porting, head etc.because they do not want to spend the money for the tried and tested components and do not understand the importance of using components that compliment one another.

Offline Langbolt

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2015, 10:10:34 PM »
F-RED.....Did you use a WISECO Piston ? My buddy had the exact same issue....it seems a lot of people are having issues with the Wiseco's expanding too much.Not sure if they changed their chemical makeup in the Aluminum....something has changed.

Switch over to a WOSSNER....And your Problem will be solved....they don't expand as much as the Wiseco's

Keep us posted...and Never give up on the R.

:)

Offline udontknowme

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 11:34:36 PM »
i dont think we can blame wiseco as a whole. ive used their pistons for years in numerous engines, plated and iron sleeved... never a problem.  i did hear something the other day, whether its true or not is hard to say , as i havent personally seen it happen but supposedly wiseco has in the past mislabeled some piston boxes and the clearance stated on the box was wrong. maybe its something to look into ?
to much power is almost enough

Offline Jerry Hall

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2015, 12:49:50 AM »
Quote from: Langbolt;53845
F-RED.....Did you use a WISECO Piston ? My buddy had the exact same issue....it seems a lot of people are having issues with the Wiseco's expanding too much.Not sure if they changed their chemical makeup in the Aluminum....something has changed.

Switch over to a WOSSNER....And your Problem will be solved....they don't expand as much as the Wiseco's

Keep us posted...and Never give up on the R.

:)

Did Wossner ever get the weight down to an acceptable level ,  They used to be so heavy that I was afraid to use them in our healthy big Bore builds that turned a lot of RPM.

Offline Jerry Hall

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2015, 12:55:30 AM »
Quote from: Langbolt;53845
F-RED.....Did you use a WISECO Piston ? My buddy had the exact same issue....it seems a lot of people are having issues with the Wiseco's expanding too much.Not sure if they changed their chemical makeup in the Aluminum....something has changed.

Switch over to a WOSSNER....And your Problem will be solved....they don't expand as much as the Wiseco's

Keep us posted...and Never give up on the R.

:)

What clearance does Wossner currently recommend for their Honda big bore pistons?

Offline rablack21

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2015, 08:28:54 AM »
Quote from: Langbolt;53845
F-RED.....Did you use a WISECO Piston ? My buddy had the exact same issue....it seems a lot of people are having issues with the Wiseco's expanding too much.Not sure if they changed their chemical makeup in the Aluminum....something has changed.

Switch over to a WOSSNER....And your Problem will be solved....they don't expand as much as the Wiseco's

Keep us posted...and Never give up on the R.

:)

Thermal expansion is not really an issue. You just have to account for it in your piston to bore clearance, just like you would any other piston, Wossner, Prox, etc. You should always match your clearance to the equipment you are using.

Offline Tbone07

This Could Be The End!
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2015, 10:57:55 AM »
Quote from: F-Red;53829
I've come to the realization, maybe I'm not to own one of this fine machines. All my life, I wanted to own the infamous TRX250R. At the age of 46, my dream came true. Found a nice clean machine in Maryland. Brought her home and for a year was Happy! Happy! Then I started to purchase aftermarket cylinders, and the trouble begins. The first 330 had overheating issues. 3 pistons, until I found the water passages around the exhaust side, were tiny little slivers. Fixed that and away I go. Now comes to the current 350. Three nice heat cycles and two short little trips up and down the road, I have this galling building up already. So now we buy more pistons until I find, what the FUK happen this time? It's getting old and expensive. My 450R is a blessing! No problems like this POS. I'm on the ledge! I don't know if I'm coming back in. :upset:

I had this same feeling when I got my engine together and exploded the cases because I didn't put loctite on 2 tiny bolts.......I almost threw in the towel and parted the whole thing out to buy a 450.

Once you take your time and do everything the right way it all works fine.

Nothing against ESR (I know people have had plenty of success with them), but I would have the ESR kit sent to a reputable builder before assembling it. Just to make sure everything is good to go
LED Performance 350R
Laegers-JD Performance-GThunder-HLS-PEP-HiPer-GBC

RIP Laz

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38