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Author Topic: Piston Comparison  (Read 8570 times)

Offline jcs003

Piston Comparison
« on: February 03, 2017, 06:00:02 PM »
I have used weisco, wossner, and pro-x on my two strokes and recently did an engine with vertex.  I wanted opinions after I did the work.  the engine is together, so there is no turning back.  reason i chose this piston is, KTM uses vertex as their OEM, and KTM are one of the only two stroke innovators.

please share your opinions and experiences.

Thank you,

John

Offline thesmith87250r

Piston Comparison
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2017, 06:45:32 PM »
I always used a pro x never had issues. Its a heavier piston so my thought is it will last longer then a piston with less material . an at the time of getting into 2 stokes i seen a fair share of broken wiesco piston which help me make the decision for pro x.

Offline jcs003

Piston Comparison
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2017, 06:58:19 PM »
Quote from: thesmith87250r;71692
I always used a pro x never had issues. Its a heavier piston so my thought is it will last longer then a piston with less material . an at the time of getting into 2 stokes i seen a fair share of broken wiesco piston which help me make the decision for pro x.

The recent issues with the wiseco ring locating pins pulling out made me stay clear.  I have a wossner in my 250r for 2 years now and compression only dropped 10 lbs, with a lot of abuse.

just to be clear.  this is all based on the cylinder being bored and honed correctly to match the clearance issues needed.

Offline supernutt

Piston Comparison
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2017, 06:59:27 PM »
Following this thread as Neil is porting a cylinder for me and asked me if I wanted a cast or forged piston for it. And I have no idea.  I have always ran wiseco pistons in my quads with no major issues. I do run 24:1 oil ratio though and race fuel in all my quads
86r 310 pro-x C-Leigh ported TRX5 CR ignition HLS shocks 38pwk
97 Laeger XC narrow CR500 link +4  t-pin
89 trx250r PEP ported ct mid pipe

Offline jcs003

Piston Comparison
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2017, 07:10:14 PM »
Quote from: supernutt;71694
Following this thread as Neil is porting a cylinder for me and asked me if I wanted a cast or forged piston for it. And I have no idea.  I have always ran wiseco pistons in my quads with no major issues. I do run 24:1 oil ratio though and race fuel in all my quads

I always run 32:1 and race fuel.  I feel this is helpful in engine life, per neil and jerry.

Offline thesmith87250r

Piston Comparison
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2017, 07:38:51 PM »
32 to 1 hp2 oil and a pro x piston same bore for 18 years.  Changed piston 2x  1 at 8 years with a ton of hrs an the other piston was still good until the lower rod bearing came apart. Stock 87 crank

Offline Burns363R

Piston Comparison
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2017, 09:55:37 PM »
I have not ran vertex, although i am sponsored by them.  I have talked to a few friends at vertex and they swear that they are the real deal.  I know my 4 poke will have vertex in it next go round.  They come with an anti friction coating like wosner as well.
TRX 363R 02- Laeger Narrow Frame/CR500 Link, Motowoz Suspension, Roll Design +4 LT Arms,RPM Dominator +4 axle, LED 363 MX, LED 350G Pipe, 38 A/S CR Ignition

TRX 370R 86- Laeger Std,ISF-No Link Swinger, JD MGC LT Arms) Motowoz Shocks, LED 370/350D pipe, 38 PWK Carb, CR Ignition

Offline C-Leigh Racing

Piston Comparison
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2017, 11:04:07 PM »
The key I stress, which ever piston you get, either one needs to be set up proper by the bore man.
Wiseco has had that pin problem in the past, but that problem is long gone. Wossnor went through that same problem as well, with one of mine & I was lucky enough to get a replacement free. They as well have solved that pin problem.
Problem with the pin, with just a hole drilled in, once the pin is pressed into place & piston in an engine & running, pressure was building up & pushing the pin out of place, so what they did, after the pin hole drilled in, there was a little V notch put into the hole to let the pressure out, pin problem solved.

A forged piston, for any & everybody using the engine, bore to piston clearance needs to be set at 0.0030, or else they will end up seizing the engine.
Now for a pro like rider, been on 2 strokes for many years & that rider going to break the engine in a proper way & then heat the engine to the proper temps before blasting off on it, knowing full well the jetting is spot on before they ever put their foot on that kicker, then the piston to bore clearance maybe can be set up a bit tighter, but that operator has got to be strict each & every start up to detail.
Now a cast piston, most know that the cast piston dont grow as quick from the heat as the forged pistons do, so the bore man can set them quite a bit tighter piston to bore clearance than a forged. A cast piston, like if that same pro like rider was going to be operating this engine, bore could be set up as close as 0.0010 with the same attention to detail from the rider just like with the forged.
Pretty much the difference, between the two types of pistons so far as durability, is dependent on the bore clearance it is set up at & the attention paid to the carbs jetting & the care that the operator will provide for that engine.
Compression wise, the forged piston, can stand quite a bit more higher compression than the cast & for a good amount of time/use. Not saying the cast piston cant survive fairly high compression, just that it wont last as long if hammered on regular. I've seen many in high compression set up, the piston would crack right across the top of the wrist pin & engine still running ok, just not like as when first built.
There have been engine builds, where the cast piston set up tight, compression not to high & it out live the forged pistons. There are many riders/racers out there will have nothing but a cast piston in their engines. To each their own I guess you could say, but with either piston, the bore man is the most important part alone with the person tinkering on the carb jetting.
Neil
C-Leigh Racing, in memory of Caraleigh Pritchard
Race team for 2015
Chuckie Creech #25 TRX450R, Pro, Pro Am, Pro Am Unlimited
Andrea Creech # 25 TRX450R, Womens (National ATVA EDT)
Andrea Creech #33 TRX350R, Womens (local EDT)

If it aint got a hot weed eater 2 stroke engine, all its good for is a pit bike

Offline JohnTabata1

Piston Comparison
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2017, 12:31:58 AM »
I use Wiseco in all two strokes

Offline jcs003

Piston Comparison
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 06:59:32 AM »
nice to hear wiseco got their issues figured out.

Offline rablack21

Piston Comparison
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 07:37:15 PM »
I have used Wiseco for many years. Never had an issue regardless of the oil ratio. I've ran them from stock size all the way up to 363cc now. They have performed very well. The key, as Neil mentioned, is making sure it has the proper clearance for that TYPE of piston. I ran a ProX piston once as well. Nothing wrong with it, I just prefer forged pistons over cast. Looking at it from a metallurgical point of view, forgings tend to be stronger than castings in basically ever aspect. With that said, your original questions was about Vertex.  I have never ran a Vertex piston, but would be willing to give it a go.

Offline Pumashine

Piston Comparison
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2017, 08:21:23 PM »
Quote from: C-Leigh Racing;71704
The key I stress, which ever piston you get, either one needs to be set up proper by the bore man.
Wiseco has had that pin problem in the past, but that problem is long gone. Wossnor went through that same problem as well, with one of mine & I was lucky enough to get a replacement free. They as well have solved that pin problem.
Problem with the pin, with just a hole drilled in, once the pin is pressed into place & piston in an engine & running, pressure was building up & pushing the pin out of place, so what they did, after the pin hole drilled in, there was a little V notch put into the hole to let the pressure out, pin problem solved.

A forged piston, for any & everybody using the engine, bore to piston clearance needs to be set at 0.0030, or else they will end up seizing the engine.
Now for a pro like rider, been on 2 strokes for many years & that rider going to break the engine in a proper way & then heat the engine to the proper temps before blasting off on it, knowing full well the jetting is spot on before they ever put their foot on that kicker, then the piston to bore clearance maybe can be set up a bit tighter, but that operator has got to be strict each & every start up to detail.
Now a cast piston, most know that the cast piston dont grow as quick from the heat as the forged pistons do, so the bore man can set them quite a bit tighter piston to bore clearance than a forged. A cast piston, like if that same pro like rider was going to be operating this engine, bore could be set up as close as 0.0010 with the same attention to detail from the rider just like with the forged.
Pretty much the difference, between the two types of pistons so far as durability, is dependent on the bore clearance it is set up at & the attention paid to the carbs jetting & the care that the operator will provide for that engine.
Compression wise, the forged piston, can stand quite a bit more higher compression than the cast & for a good amount of time/use. Not saying the cast piston cant survive fairly high compression, just that it wont last as long if hammered on regular. I've seen many in high compression set up, the piston would crack right across the top of the wrist pin & engine still running ok, just not like as when first built.
There have been engine builds, where the cast piston set up tight, compression not to high & it out live the forged pistons. There are many riders/racers out there will have nothing but a cast piston in their engines. To each their own I guess you could say, but with either piston, the bore man is the most important part alone with the person tinkering on the carb jetting.
Neil

This needs to be in a sticky [MENTION=87]havinnoj[/MENTION]
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline broken1

Piston Comparison
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2017, 01:20:03 AM »
Just got a new wiseco piston & getting 2 more in the near future.

Offline rablack21

Piston Comparison
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2017, 07:42:45 AM »
I would add to what Neil said and say that the clearance amount would also be dependent on the size of the piston. Any piston for a 350cc or larger needs to be at least .004 clearance. I believe guys running pumas use .005 for clearance.

Offline etccb

Piston Comparison
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2017, 10:31:10 AM »
Quote from: rablack21;71724
I would add to what Neil said and say that the clearance amount would also be dependent on the size of the piston. Any piston for a 350cc or larger needs to be at least .004 clearance. I believe guys running pumas use .005 for clearance.

Yes common sense would would say that the clearance # would change slightly with the piston size. It is a factor to take into consideration vs sticking to a common number that you have heard repeated.

 

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