Racing 450's discussion

[Burns363R]

I race both my 4 stroke and 2 stroke every weekend.  I race the same guys in both production and Open class.  I run my R in the open class and my can am in the production class.  The other guys use the same bikes.  Im here to tell you that it will never be easy on a 2 stroke.  but you can make it easier like i have by gearing up.

If you gear down, you will be shifting much much more often.

[Burns363R]

If you gear down, yes your 4th gear will match there 3rd gear, but... your 2nd and 3rd gears will be much much shorter and when your in those gears and you stab the throttle, you will fly through them so quickly you will be continiously shifting up and down very quickly.  Which will also create issues in corners and mis shifts.

Gearing up allows you to increase speed in each gear but also increase the rev range in each gear.  Essentially slowing the revs of the motor so that your blasting through the gears as fast.  Mind you are still accelerating at the same rate, but your using tq instead of HP..  You have to have a very good motor to race this way, but its essentally what 4 strokes are doing now with the longer gears.

[rablack21]

I see what your saying.
Now if the 2 stroke has more hp, high compression hp, the gears could be shifted sooner than the 4 poke & pull it like that.

The ratios your using, what year trans ?. If 88/89, try the old 85/86 ratios & see what you come up with.
The old 85/86 gears, we used those on the big bore few years back & when shift to 3rd off the gate, would pull off & leave the rest of the field.
Neil

These numbers are from an 88/89 trans, never checked an older trans.

I think ryan is saying that the suspension is negligible... basically its a 2 stroke vs 4 stroke debate for gear selection going in and coming out of corners and hitting jumps.  On a 2 stroke your shifting a lot more and typically have less forgiveness than a 4 stroke.

Yes, I think you're getting what I'm talking about.

I race both my 4 stroke and 2 stroke every weekend.  I race the same guys in both production and Open class.  I run my R in the open class and my can am in the production class.  The other guys use the same bikes.  Im here to tell you that it will never be easy on a 2 stroke.  but you can make it easier like i have by gearing up.

If you gear down, you will be shifting much much more often.

True, you would have to shift more often. However, I'm don't think you can pull those gears without a large big bore. I tried 15-38 once on my quad and it has some goods and bad. It was a short track though and didn't seem to work out very well. In honesty, I didn't give it a full thorough testing.

[Burns363R]

i agree that you need alot of motor to pull those gears.  I sometimes contemplate droping back a little gear.... One thing i have to train myself is that i can do some of the jumps in 3rd gear now because of the gearing but i still try to grab 4th and i do it to early and bog the motor.  Its all about getting used to it.  You deff dont ride it like a small bore motor.  I would say you need to be in the 60hp neighborhood to pull those gears on a MX track.

[rablack21]

If you gear down, yes your 4th gear will match there 3rd gear, but... your 2nd and 3rd gears will be much much shorter and when your in those gears and you stab the throttle, you will fly through them so quickly you will be continiously shifting up and down very quickly.  Which will also create issues in corners and mis shifts.

Gearing up allows you to increase speed in each gear but also increase the rev range in each gear.  Essentially slowing the revs of the motor so that your blasting through the gears as fast.  Mind you are still accelerating at the same rate, but your using tq instead of HP..  You have to have a very good motor to race this way, but its essentally what 4 strokes are doing now with the longer gears.

I agree with what you are saying, but I would think that you wouldn't necessarily need 2nd anymore since your 3rd gear would be lower. For example, a section on the track that you usually use 2nd and 3rd gear with a high gear ratio maxed out, maybe your could use 3rd and 4th with a low gear ratio not maxed out. I don't know this to be completely true, just curious if you couldn't do this, especially if your motor can pull the supper tall gears.

I agree, it takes a strong motor to pull the really high gears.

[rablack21]

i agree that you need alot of motor to pull those gears.  I sometimes contemplate droping back a little gear.... One thing i have to train myself is that i can do some of the jumps in 3rd gear now because of the gearing but i still try to grab 4th and i do it to early and bog the motor.  Its all about getting used to it.  You deff dont ride it like a small bore motor.  I would say you need to be in the 60hp neighborhood to pull those gears on a MX track.

Agreed^^^. So, if you don't have a motor than can pull the really high gear, what is your next best option? This is the question I keep asking myself.

[Burns363R]

Your mindset is correct, but i dont think its going to pull/ feel like you want it to.  As far as comparing power to a 4 poke.

[rablack21]

So what do you do to beat them then? When I go to the track to race, I have to assume that the other guys have studied the track, prepped their quads, and have them dialed in just like I do, and have the stamina to finish the race. So what do I do differently to beat them then? Cause the transmission ratios say that they are faster than me gear per gear, if everything else is equal. So, if I don't stay a gear ahead, how can I beat them?

[05450r]

So what do you do to beat them then?

If you cant beat them, join them!!...ahhhahhaaaha

[chrisr]

So what do you do to beat them then? When I go to the track to race, I have to assume that the other guys have studied the track, prepped their quads, and have them dialed in just like I do, and have the stamina to finish the race. So what do I do differently to beat them then? Cause the transmission ratios say that they are faster than me gear per gear, if everything else is equal. So, if I don't stay a gear ahead, how can I beat them?

Be better than them.  Have your shocks dialed in better, on the off season practice going in and coming out of the corners and do cardio training.  I have a friend, Robbie Horton who was a pro motorcross racer right out of high school, he was pro-am in high school and rode for Kawasaki.  I rode with him many days on his practice track and he spent most of his time practicing coming into and leaving the corners.

[Tbone07]

So what do you do to beat them then? When I go to the track to race, I have to assume that the other guys have studied the track, prepped their quads, and have them dialed in just like I do, and have the stamina to finish the race. So what do I do differently to beat them then? Cause the transmission ratios say that they are faster than me gear per gear, if everything else is equal. So, if I don't stay a gear ahead, how can I beat them?

Get your technique as close to perfect as you can, study and practice the tracks you frequent

...and get a BB motor

[rablack21]

Get your technique as close to perfect as you can, study and practice the tracks you frequent

...and get a BB motor

I think the last part of your comment, Tbone, may be what the inevitable outcome is.

[Burns363R]

Get your technique as close to perfect as you can, study and practice the tracks you frequent

...and get a BB motor

Pretty much this.... I have been working on the perfect forumula to make my bike 4 stroke like and i have it very close.  but at the end of the day you still dont have the low end power they do.  I have gained a ton of low end over any other 250R engine i have ever ridden, but its still not as strong as low as a 4 stroke.    

You have to be a better rider, and make less mistakes.  What really kills you on a 2 stroke is the unforgiving of the motor.  If you make a mistake it will cost you much more on a 2 stroke than a four stroke.    Putting in a ton of practice time on your bike will help you perfect you technique.   I lay down virtually identical lap times on my can am and honda.  Thats because im very good at switching back and forth between bikes and i know how to ride each of them differently.

But you will never make the bike as easy to ride as a 4 stroke.  thats why there are so many good riders these days.  4 strokes have made it easier for an average rider to be good.  I had a buddy of mine who is the current atva 450 national champion on my 250R and he looked like he was learning to ride for the first time.  He is a much faster rider than I am on his 450, but he wouldnt have a chance even after a month of riding my R at keeping up with me on it.

[rablack21]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Pretty much this.... I have been working on the perfect forumula to make my bike 4 stroke like and i have it very close.  but at the end of the day you still dont have the low end power they do.  I have gained a ton of low end over any other 250R engine i have ever ridden, but its still not as strong as low as a 4 stroke.    

You have to be a better rider, and make less mistakes.  What really kills you on a 2 stroke is the unforgiving of the motor.  If you make a mistake it will cost you much more on a 2 stroke than a four stroke.    Putting in a ton of practice time on your bike will help you perfect you technique.   I lay down virtually identical lap times on my can am and honda.  Thats because im very good at switching back and forth between bikes and i know how to ride each of them differently.

But you will never make the bike as easy to ride as a 4 stroke.  thats why there are so many good riders these days.  4 strokes have made it easier for an average rider to be good.  I had a buddy of mine who is the current atva 450 national champion on my 250R and he looked like he was learning to ride for the first time.  He is a much faster rider than I am on his 450, but he wouldnt have a chance even after a month of riding my R at keeping up with me on it.

I am curious to see how the smart carb may play into this with the low end grunt. When I rode Oldschoolr's R with his billet smart carb, I was amazed at how low the rpms could get and it still have instant throttle response. I will let you know when I get mine in.

[Burns363R]

Lol im getting one to if they ever release them.  A member on here also offered to send me there 40.5 billet to test for them.