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Author Topic: To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question  (Read 7764 times)

Offline rablack21

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« on: February 03, 2014, 10:31:50 AM »
I really like the idea of building a stroker motor, especially the extra bottom end power. I'm a little concerned about issues with the frame though. I know several people that have stroked big bores that have had issues with breaking motor mounts.

I also wonder if the price difference of building a stroker is worth the performance gain. Does it make the same kind of difference that a big carb or pipe makes? more? less?

Online havinnoj

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 10:48:01 AM »
Quote from: rablack21;24458
I'm a little concerned about issues with the frame though. I know several people that have stroked big bores that have had issues with breaking motor mounts.

There is some misinformation here.  A balanced/trued stroker crank isn't going to cause damage to a frame that would otherwise be fine.  I could see some issues with an improperly balanced crank with a huge piston on it but I have never had issues with any of the 4mil hot rod stroker cranks I've used.

As far as performance gains - I'll leave that to guys that have built enough similar motors with and without stroker cranks (example: 76mm piston X 76mm stroke versus a 76mm piston X 72mm stroke) and can really compare the two.  Unless you're looking at a big Puma motor, typically you don't need to balance or change anything on the hot rod 4mm - so the incremental cost is ~$300 ($250 crank and $50 to weld the tins).

Offline rsss396

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 10:53:20 AM »
IMO its best to keep the bore and stroke close to the same or even slightly more stroke than bore, and seams to be a proven combination over the years.

The longer stroke allows the transfers to be shorter, allowing the exhaust port area above the transfers to be increased without raising the duration numbers as high as a short stroke setup with a equal exhaust port area.

The exhaust port size above the transfers and its ability to remove the exhaust gases before the transfers open will make be one of the largest impacts on the output of the motor and its ability to have a good over-rev. If the exhaust gas pressure's are not brought down lower than the pressure in the crankcase the exhaust gases do not care which way they go and will travel down the transfers until the pressure drops low enough to allow flow to change direction and back into the cylinder. Every cylinder has this condition at some point in the rpm range but the better your exhaust port flows during the "blowdown period" the better the power will be at high rpm.

The problems with stroker cranks are piston speeds are increased along with friction and wear and port timings do increase on both the transfers and slightly less on the exhaust port, so if you do not have a stock like port timing, your port timing may be to aggressive for your style of riding. But some of that is offset by the fact that you have more cc's and with more displacement you normally have more lowend power

Hot rod has brand new long rod +4 cranks for 250.00 and that is a great deal so for the money its hard not to justifiy not buying one.
Anyone looking for a great builder I highly recommend the following.
For CP products dealers I would recommend:
Arlan at LED(site sponsor), Pete Schemberger at Hybrid Engineering, Mat Shearer at Shearer Custom Pipes, Dennis Packard at Packard Racing, and Nate McCoy of McCoys Peformance.

Other great builders I also would recommend: Neil Prichard, Jerry Hall, Bubba Ramsey and James Dodge.

Offline rablack21

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 10:59:29 AM »
Is it necessary to weld the tins?

Online havinnoj

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 11:01:32 AM »
Quote from: rablack21;24464
Is it necessary to weld the tins?

I know some builders remove them but my experience with the 4mm strokers is that under 370cc you can just tack weld in a few places.  For bigger motors often times they are fully welded.

Offline rsss396

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 11:12:48 AM »
from what I have been told the newer hot rods have better crimps on the tins so its less likely to have a issue, but it never hurts to be safe and have them tacked.
I think its a RPM related issue not so much a motor size problem with the tins coming loose or rotating from their orig position
Anyone looking for a great builder I highly recommend the following.
For CP products dealers I would recommend:
Arlan at LED(site sponsor), Pete Schemberger at Hybrid Engineering, Mat Shearer at Shearer Custom Pipes, Dennis Packard at Packard Racing, and Nate McCoy of McCoys Peformance.

Other great builders I also would recommend: Neil Prichard, Jerry Hall, Bubba Ramsey and James Dodge.

Offline jcs003

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 11:16:16 AM »
Quote from: rsss396;24467
from what I have been told the newer hot rods have better crimps on the tins so its less likely to have a issue, but it never hurts to be safe and have them tacked.
I think its a RPM related issue not so much a motor size problem with the tins coming loose or rotating from their orig position

would it be good to remove the tins for reliability?  i have heard that crankcase volume should be a consideration.

john

Offline Rupp250

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 12:04:41 PM »
Don't know at what point the tins should be removed but @363cc's my tins are still on my Hotrods +4mm crank.
DRAG- Puma in a Ziggy Chassis
TRAIL -86  250R ported stock cylinder
DUNER -86 250R  Flinstone

Offline rsss396

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 12:33:59 PM »
have not measured the crankcase compression but i will guess that is not something to worry about until you are in the 400+cc range and even then most guys still have the tins
Anyone looking for a great builder I highly recommend the following.
For CP products dealers I would recommend:
Arlan at LED(site sponsor), Pete Schemberger at Hybrid Engineering, Mat Shearer at Shearer Custom Pipes, Dennis Packard at Packard Racing, and Nate McCoy of McCoys Peformance.

Other great builders I also would recommend: Neil Prichard, Jerry Hall, Bubba Ramsey and James Dodge.

Offline 85drag250r

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 05:42:03 AM »
Another thing to consider when building a stroker engine, is the rod ratio. It can play a big part on piston wear.

IMO, 130.3mm is good for a stock stroke but gets undesirable when you start adding stroke to the crank.

Offline 85drag250r

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 05:53:56 AM »
If the Hot rod crank is built with a 130.3 rod, you are not doing yourself any favors dropping it in, IMO

once you get into changing rods for a better ratio, it really bumps up the overall price of the crank

Offline PORTED R

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 06:45:18 AM »
unless ur building a drag 431 puma or larger don't trip
McCoy ProX 350 5mil Duner
McCoys Performance -1-530-476-2222

Offline PORTED R

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 07:11:05 AM »
u never mentioned the topend ur using aswill
there's plenty of builds up to 370 and above that don't have welded tins ,some are removed and some are not,depending on motor setup and compression
McCoy ProX 350 5mil Duner
McCoys Performance -1-530-476-2222

Offline rsss396

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 08:45:59 AM »
IMO, I think the 130 long rod is fine for a +4 stroke, the cr250 ran the 125 rod until its last year, adding 5mm to the rod length and +4 in stroke over a proven setup is within reason.
The KTM rod up grade that is 132.5mm long is done more for the rod strength rather than the rod length

But once you get to the 78mm piston size the KTM rod should be considered very seriously for long term reliability and performance
Anyone looking for a great builder I highly recommend the following.
For CP products dealers I would recommend:
Arlan at LED(site sponsor), Pete Schemberger at Hybrid Engineering, Mat Shearer at Shearer Custom Pipes, Dennis Packard at Packard Racing, and Nate McCoy of McCoys Peformance.

Other great builders I also would recommend: Neil Prichard, Jerry Hall, Bubba Ramsey and James Dodge.

Offline 85drag250r

To stroke or not to stroke: that is the question
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 09:15:38 AM »
rsss396
cruching some quick numbers....the 76mmm stroke with a 130 rod gives a 1.71 ratio.

stock ratio -130.3 is 1.80
                      125 short rod is 1.73

adding a +4 stroke with a 130 rod makes the ratio worse than the short rod at 1.71

IMO this would make for a very high piston speed (F.P.S)

If I am wrong please correct me
Thanks

 

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