Ignition

[Polonda]

Am I correct in assuming from all your info posted that if you purchase the service Honda kit and the ESR adapter plate you will end up with an ignition curve that has less timing than the 2001 CR250 curve.  And in order to get more timing you will need to slot the holes on the new stator plate?

[rsss396]

Am I correct in assuming from all your info posted that if you purchase the service Honda kit and the ESR adapter plate you will end up with an ignition curve that has less timing than the 2001 CR250 curve.  And in order to get more timing you will need to slot the holes on the new stator plate?

yes you are correct


edit:
I want to re-answer this question as I was incorrect because I had not yet removed the plates that center the stator at zero.

Typical Honda stators have a slotted top bolt hole and on the bottom a single hole centering plate that locates the stator. If you remove this plate then the the stator plate can rotate normally 4-5 degrees.
This Electrosport stator plate is different in it has 2 centering plates, I did not notice that they has sandwiched a top centering plate in between the bracket that holds the wires from the stator and pickup away from the flywheel.
When you remove both centering plates from the top and bottom then you can advance the stator plate just like a Honda stator plate which with no modifications you will get between 4-5 degrees advanced, if you want more than you need to slot the stator plate

[rsss396]

Dave could you explain to me how to test, the coil output?
I have access to just about any type of meter available, and im wanting to learn how to do what your talking about..

obviously checking the coil resistance, and peak voltage...  but it sounds like somehow your actually checking the spark intensity...or are you just checking peck voltage with the different cdi's?? thanks
Barry

2 years ago I went after trying to actually figure out spark intensity on different CDI's, well I am pretty much still trying.
What I have used for testing different parts of the circuit from the stator - CDI - coil - spark plug
I spin the flywheel/stator/coil/spark plug assembly with a bench tester that can run from 500 rpms to 10,000 rpms
What I have for testing equipment is:
- Equus 5568 Pro-Timing Light

- TecMate's "Ignitionmate"

The compact dual-display peak-voltage ignition tester that  makes   trouble-shooting all types of spark ignition systems easier,  surer,   quicker.
           
Ignition signals are fast, high voltage, pulses of energy that can    damage even a good digital multimeter whereas the IgnitionMate has been    specially designed to measure and dynamically display both primary and    secondary ignition signals on bright LED bargraph displays.

The application of this versatile tool is based on two basic points:

•     Different types of ignition systems have the same basic components  with   signals measured being generally similar in nature and magnitude.  

    No disassembling of ignition components are required. (This avoids    accidentally introducing, or correcting, poor contacts in the system,    which may further confuse and delay resolution of the unidentified    problems.)

•     The power-sports vehicle industry’s most recommended problem-solving    ignition trouble-shooting tool includes the following measurement    options:

    Primary low tension / peak volt 10, 40 or 400Vpk scales  - use the  RED   & BLACK silicon tester cables to measure primary signals  between the   ICU and the power supply (battery or charge coil), timing  pick-up   (pulse coil or hall sensor), ignition coil and switches (key,  emergency   stop, footstand, throttle). The silicon tester cables  are  resistant to   damage from hot engines or exhausts. Also included are  insulated   crocodile clips and special PROBULATOR back probes that  allow easy   connection (without damage) to in line cable connectors.
[/LIST]
 Secondary high tension / peak volt 10, 20, 40 kV scales - use the    caliper to measure high voltage between the ignition coil and the    sparkplug.  Use the +/- switch to determine the    polarity of the high voltage signal. Normally single output coils have    negative signals and dual output coils have negative and positive    signals.
Spark scale to measure the consistency of the high voltage current    signal and to determine misfires. The signal strength can be varied for    display purposes. Spark strength of different cylinders can be  compared.    
The dual displays allow simultaneous measurement of two different    ignition signals. This allows you to narrow down between which two    points the problem lies.



- Smarttach

TA100 Features
        
      Tachometer function
       

•       For 1 to 12 cylinders and 2 or 4 cycle engines
•       Measures from 200 to 20000 RPM on a 4-1/2 digits LCD display
•       Advanced microcontroller technology yields 0.5 % accuracy
•       No sighting of rotating parts or hook-up required.
•       Works on DIS, Conventional, Magneto and most spark ignition system.

      Secondary ignition tester
    

•       Instant digital readings from 0 to 40000 Volt
•       Special antenna sensor allows quick hook-up to spark plug and ignition           coil wires
•       No ground wire connections required, for fast troubleshooting
•       Multiple diagnostic applications are described in comprehensive User's           Handbook (Included)

   Simple and easy to use
    

•       Tachometer:        Set the number of cylinders and cycles,     extend the antenna and hold the instrument about a foot above the ignition system. RPM is     displayed.
  
  
•       Secondary Ignition Voltage Tester: Hook the antenna     sensor over a spark plug wire or coil. Peak voltage of the ignition pulse in kilovolts is     displayed
  

Technical Specifications
    

•       Display:        Large 4-1/2 Digits LCD
  
  
•       Tachometer Range:  200 to 19999 RPM
  
  
•       # of Cylinders: 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10 and 12
  
  
•       Cycles: 2 and 4 Cycles
  
  
•       Accuracy:  ± 0.5%
  
  
•              Response time:       0.5 Seconds
  
  
•              Ignition peak voltage range: 0 to 39.9 KVolt
  
  
•       Antenna: Collapsible 5 sections with        capacitive sensor pick up
  
  
•       Secondary ignition pick up: Capacitive sensor
  
  
•       Spark Ignition System:        Distributor,  Magneto and D.I.S.
  
  
•       Power Source:       One        standard 9 Volt alkaline battery type NEDA         1604 IEC 6F 22
  
  
•       Battery life:       Approx. 200 hours of operation
  
  
•       Power Saving:        Auto power off after approximately 3 min. of inactivity
  
  
•       Physical dimensions:         2.75" W x 5.35" L x 1" D - (         69.9 x 135.9 x 25.4 mm )
  
  
•       Weight: Approximately         6.2 Oz ( 180 g) Including         battery
  

Electrical Specifications
    

•       Maximum spark plug        wire voltage (Through capacitive pickup only):        39.9 KVolt
  
  
  
  
  I also use a  Fluke 73 and a Fluke 123 to measure current and voltage on the output of the CDI
  
  I also have also tried using a high voltage probe with my flukes to measure actual spark output but not with much luck
  
  
  I am at work today and many of my old notes have been thrown away over the last few years but I will just say spark energy is not a easy thing to measure. I read up allot on the subject back then but there are many variables to account for.
  The ignitionmate does a pretty good job with the output reading for spark energy but did see inconsistencies and the smart tach is a waste of money along with the high voltage probe.
  After not being 100% satisfied with my spark out put I figured I would just measure amperage the coil was pulling on the primary side which is typically about 300v so the flukes can be directly connected in series with the coil and for the most part is pretty consistant but the capacitor's discharge does mess with the output reading.
  So I then looked at the stator amperage along with the CDI amperage.
  While for the most part everything was consistant with the meters but sometimes the outputs seamed as I will call strange,  Like I said I am at work so I dont have what notes I have left but I do know while the MSD Enhancer CDI had the brightest and loadest spark it had strange low amperage readings so I feel that the meters were not always  accurate.
  I am not a electronics guy and I wish I knew someone close that could come by and work with me to truly analyze spark energy that these CDI put out.
  
  I even played with one of these and boy the CDI's dont like the noise they make
  
  
  
  

[2strokesforever]

yes you are correct

could someone explain this more? Tryin to figure out what i will have to do to make this kit work before i spend all that money,talking about having to slot the holes in the new stator plate

[rsss396]

When you look at the back side of the stator plates I posted you can see where the 2 bolts that mount the stator plate to the adapter plate are already slotted in the casted aluminum.
But on the front side of the Service Honda stator it has a steel plate over this slot on the bottom that located the stator plate to factory specs, this can be removed by taking the small Phillips head screw out. by removing this the slot is usable.
But the top also has a steel plate that can not be removed because it also is used to clamp and route wires away from the flywheel. this plate can be easiely slotted with a dremel. All you have to do is grind the steel plate to match the slot in the aluminum backer plate. By doing this you will have approximately 4-5 degrees of advance or retard depending on the direction you rotate the plate, rotate the plate clockwise to advance the timing.
If you look at my modified cr500 stator plate I posted you will notice the slots are even longer than the factories that plate will go around 9 degrees advanced if my memory serves me correct.

[rsss396]

OEM stator plates already have the top steel plate slotted and all you have to do is remove the bottom steel plate to allow for you to advance or retard the timing 4 degrees

[2strokesforever]

When you look at the back side of the stator plates I posted you can see where the 2 bolts that mount the stator plate to the adapter plate are already slotted in the casted aluminum.
But on the front side of the Service Honda stator it has a steel plate over this slot on the bottom that located the stator plate to factory specs, this can be removed by taking the small Phillips head screw out. by removing this the slot is usable.
But the top also has a steel plate that can not be removed because it also is used to clamp and route wires away from the flywheel. this plate can be easiely slotted with a dremel. All you have to do is grind the steel plate to match the slot in the aluminum backer plate. By doing this you will have approximately 4-5 degrees of advance or retard depending on the direction you rotate the plate, rotate the plate clockwise to advance the timing.
If you look at my modified cr500 stator plate I posted you will notice the slots are even longer than the factories that plate will go around 9 degrees advanced if my memory serves me correct.

ok thanks that helped alot

[2strokesforever]

so im guessing you center that slot on the 0 mark that they have marked on the ESR plate?

[rsss396]

before you slot anything you should make your own center mark that lines up with the esr mark

[2strokesforever]

before you slot anything you should make your own center mark that lines up with the esr mark

Ahh ok so when bolted up the way it comes with no mods make a mark on the stator plate that lines up with the ESR 0 mark and that will be 0 timing?

[rsss396]

Yes Sir!

[2strokesforever]

damn i wish you was close enough where i could buy this stuff and have you install it cause you seem to be the igniton guru...lol

[d-rock]

Hi guys. I was wondering if Electrosport make the cr500 kit for service Honda. would this be any good? http://www.electrosport.com/dirt-bikes/honda/cr250r-00-01/lighting-stator-cr-8-pole.html . and is it the same as the 50W option bdt is offering? although 50 watts is not that much it was wondering if it would be enough to run a 35w hid and taillight if I add a battery?

[rsss396]

hard to say if it would be a good choice, service Honda says theirs is a 100w that stator is only 50w so i guess it depends on your lighting needs.
But what does have me wondering is the power to the cdi, the amount of coils they have is half of OEM so if the coils are wrapped with the same amount turns then the voltage to the CDI is going to be close to half. This would be probably ok at the upper rpms but low rpms would have a much weaker spark. They can use finer wire with more turns to increase the voltage but amperage goes down and high rpms it may have voltage run to high for the OEM CDI.

I am not a electronics guy so I really dont want to say Electrosport is selling something that does not work, but what I am saying is you are giving up something some where to gain something which in this case a lighting coil.

The service Honda unit more than likely is a High voltage low amp CDI setup, with the added lighting coil. (high voltage cdi's are what your factory trx CDI is)
The 00-01 OEM CDI are a lower voltage higher amp setup.
The 02-and later OEM CDI are still even lower voltage with higher amps than the 00-01's

[rsss396]

heres is the Service Honda / BDT lighting coil CR ignition with added timing