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Author Topic: Water pump impeller compatibility with other models  (Read 22451 times)

Offline jcs003

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2015, 08:50:04 AM »
you don't want the coolant moving too fast or it will be counter productive.

john

Offline rablack21

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2015, 09:11:58 AM »
Quote from: jcs003;52970
you don't want the coolant moving too fast or it will be counter productive.

john
That is true but almost impossible. The rate at which the heat transfers is far faster than the coolant can ever flow in this system.

Offline jcs003

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2015, 09:32:52 AM »
Quote from: rablack21;52971
That is true but almost impossible. The rate at which the heat transfers is far faster than the coolant can ever flow in this system.

thats good.  ryan, i know you did your homework,

john

Offline Burns363R

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2015, 11:57:44 AM »
Another great way to increase end suction centrifugal pump efficiency is to have the proper suction clearance.  You should measure the stock, and space the impeller outward to take up the clearance.  You want as little clearance as possible. This will create more head pressure and increase the flow rate by reducing internal recirculation of the pump.  

I work with end suction centrifugal pumps for a living.  If you have specific questions, I may be able to help.
TRX 363R 02- Laeger Narrow Frame/CR500 Link, Motowoz Suspension, Roll Design +4 LT Arms,RPM Dominator +4 axle, LED 363 MX, LED 350G Pipe, 38 A/S CR Ignition

TRX 370R 86- Laeger Std,ISF-No Link Swinger, JD MGC LT Arms) Motowoz Shocks, LED 370/350D pipe, 38 PWK Carb, CR Ignition

Offline rablack21

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2015, 12:25:20 PM »
That's a good idea, Kyle. I thought about this as well. However, this appears to be an area that Honda did quite well with. These clearances are already very close. I don't think the benefit of the additional suction would be worth the super tight clearances it would take to move the impeller any closer than it already is now.

Offline udontknowme

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2015, 12:48:16 PM »
i dont keep up on some of this stuff but last i heard service honda was working on a new and improved cr250 ign that would run lights. maybe it never got completed or they scrapped the idea ?  something like that would power a fan i would think
to much power is almost enough

Offline Burns363R

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2015, 12:56:14 PM »
well its called suction clearance, but its not about creating more suction.  Anyways.     What is the current clearance.  I would take it down to .005 if its not already there.
TRX 363R 02- Laeger Narrow Frame/CR500 Link, Motowoz Suspension, Roll Design +4 LT Arms,RPM Dominator +4 axle, LED 363 MX, LED 350G Pipe, 38 A/S CR Ignition

TRX 370R 86- Laeger Std,ISF-No Link Swinger, JD MGC LT Arms) Motowoz Shocks, LED 370/350D pipe, 38 PWK Carb, CR Ignition

Offline Burns363R

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2015, 01:01:10 PM »
The shaft will grow approximately .0025 total length going from 75 to 200 degrees.  so setting it at .005 would give you about .0025 clearance.  

I dont know what honda sets it at, it would be cool to know.
TRX 363R 02- Laeger Narrow Frame/CR500 Link, Motowoz Suspension, Roll Design +4 LT Arms,RPM Dominator +4 axle, LED 363 MX, LED 350G Pipe, 38 A/S CR Ignition

TRX 370R 86- Laeger Std,ISF-No Link Swinger, JD MGC LT Arms) Motowoz Shocks, LED 370/350D pipe, 38 PWK Carb, CR Ignition

Offline Jerry Hall

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2015, 03:09:39 PM »
Quote from: Skeans1;52882
Another option could be an electric pump and just do away with the shaft bearing and impeller


An electric water pump flow rate is not proportional to the engine RPM and engine heat output.  I do not think that you have enough electrical power coming out of the stator to power a water pump with the needed flow rate.  I have not done any flow test on the 250s but the flow rates on the early 80s RM 125cc engine was in the neighborhood of 32 liters per minute at 10,000 engine RPM.  these engines had power levels in the low to mid twenties hp range.  My guess is you would need a flow rate of at least 15 gal/min with a pressure drop of a few psi for a 250 making 50 plus hp

V8 engines will have water pump flow rates in the 50 to 100 gallons per minute range.

Offline Jerry Hall

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2015, 04:05:36 PM »
I think that there will be a lot more gains made removing / improving the flow restrictions in the cooling system than trying to redesign the water pump.  

The inline temp gages, and billet finned inline coolers reduce the coolant flow through the hoses.  

The billet elbow inlets as well as some of the die cast OEM elbows on the cylinders are horrible.  Liquid does not like all of the sudden 90 deg corners with all of the sharp edges.  3 minutes with a small porting tool could possibly improve the flow more than the best power robbing high flow rate water pump.  All of my testing points to improving the air flow through the radiator will be much more rewarding than spending time building high flow water pumps   There was a period where guys were spending/wasting money on the high flow impellers for the  Banshees. The Banshees needed an impeller that did not slip on the shaft when it got hot not a big power robbing water pump.

In the mid 1980s we used a Rotax model 256 road racing engines in the 250 shifter karts.  We used the same engine on the micro-sprint dirt track cars.  These 250cc twin cylinder engines made 75 to 80 hp.  We had these 250s running 157 mph at Daytona.  The radiator in the shifter kart was 5" high 12" wide and 2" thick and the engines never ran over 140 deg.f.  The micro sprint cars used an automotive radiator that was about 24" x 24" x 2" thick and they would run 200 deg F. with a lot of heat related engine failures.  The micro-sprint guys put their radiator behind the roll cage, drivers shoulders and head blocking much of the air flow.  I could not make these guys understand the importance of getting airflow through the radiator.

The majority of the heat transfer occurs within the water jacket by a process called convective heat transfer.  The heat transfer relies on velocity.  As the velocity of the coolant over the surface increases, the heat transfer increases.  Convective heat transfer is also what cools an air cooled engine.  Increase the velocity of the air through the fins...cooling increases.  The water passageways through the jacket do not need to be a mile wide and a mile deep just like the air moving through the fins on an air cooled engine only needs to moving fast over the surface of the fins.

I do not think that higher coolant flow rates are necessarily needed but only higher coolant velocities over the surfaces within the engine that need to transfer heat to the coolant. Higher velocity of the coolant over the surfaces, requires coolant passageways that are designed to be conducive to good flow with out turbulence as the coolant turns corners.  Were turbulence or cavitation occurs heat transfer will be hindered.

As stated in an earlier post, increasing the volume of coolant in the water jacket or head does not have any effect on improving the heat transfer rate.  It only increases the thermal inertia of the cooling system.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 04:25:07 PM by Jerry Hall »

Offline udontknowme

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2015, 09:50:18 PM »
makes you wonder why coolhead keeps using them fins on the back side of the chamber. not to mention the jacketing likely has the water volume increased. other than the fact that you can take a blank dome and machine it to nearly infinite chamber shapes and locate the spark plug where ever desired but other wise i see no value in the cool head style of head.  other aftermarket heads look to be just copy cats of the coolhead more or less. maybe these aftermarket heads are part of the problem why people have heat issues
to much power is almost enough

Offline Jerry Hall

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2015, 01:02:21 AM »
Quote from: udontknowme;52992
makes you wonder why coolhead keeps using them fins on the back side of the chamber. not to mention the jacketing likely has the water volume increased. other than the fact that you can take a blank dome and machine it to nearly infinite chamber shapes and locate the spark plug where ever desired but other wise i see no value in the cool head style of head.  other aftermarket heads look to be just copy cats of the coolhead more or less. maybe these aftermarket heads are part of the problem why people have heat issues

 There is nothing in these billet heads mentioned above to direct the coolant between the fins on the domes.  The fins fill up with steam bubbles and do not escape at the rate they are being formed on the surface of the fins.  The steam bubbles keep the coolant from coming in contact with the hot surface of the dome.  When this happens this will not cause the engine to have high coolant temperature if the radiator is of adequate size and getting the right amount of air flow through it.  

We have design errors like this plaguing the aftermarket performance industry.  These guys have the skills and equipment to make just about anything if they are handed a blueprint that is the result of using basic engineering principles and testing.  The unfortunate part is they do not understand thermodynamics, fluid mechanics and heat transfer well enough to design parts that do what they are advertised to do.


Moto-cross engines, woods engines, and cross country engines do not usually run at max load for long enough periods of time for the symptoms of ill designed heads and coolant passage ways in the cylinders to ever raise their ugly head.  These engines are plagued with bumpers with number plates, bumpers with air stopping grills, bumpers with cow catchers on them,  shock reservoirs, designer radiator grills, and ill designed air scoops that keep sufficient air flow from getting through the radiator.

The symptoms of ill designed heads and coolant passage ways in the cylinders of salt flat racers, road racers, enduro type shifter karts and other applications that spend long periods of time at wide open throttle will show up very quickly even though the coolant temps may be below 140 deg. F.   Improperly designed coolant passageways will show up as hot spots within the engine and will raise their ugly head  when coolant temperatures are low.

If you are experiencing high coolant temps, this is not a symptom of needing more water flow or higher velocity coolant flow through the engine.  The engine is getting rid of the heat but the radiator is not.  This is a symptom of needing more air flow through the radiator or a radiator with the ability to dissipate more heat to the atmosphere.

Offline udontknowme

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2015, 12:56:19 PM »
some of the aftermarket stuff seems to have very little thought put into the design. rather than a bunch of fins and a spark plug encased in thick material with hardly a chance of being cooled down, why not do something more like this, surely it would be far better
to much power is almost enough

Offline Jerry Hall

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2015, 06:59:16 PM »
Quote from: udontknowme;53011
some of the aftermarket stuff seems to have very little thought put into the design. rather than a bunch of fins and a spark plug encased in thick material with hardly a chance of being cooled down, why not do something more like this, surely it would be far better

The big question is, what are you trying to accomplish with a new head design?????????

Offline udontknowme

Water pump impeller compatibility with other models
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2015, 08:34:05 PM »
im not making a new head but if i were, it would be in a similar direction as the pic above.  i wouldnt waste my time with coolhead or any of its copycat variants (wont mention any company names). most oem heads ive seen are designed well but unsuspecting people get sucked into exagerated sales pitches by aftermarket companies, so the oem parts get tossed on the shelf or sold. i think very few of these aftermarket companies actually have real engineers employed
to much power is almost enough

 

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