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Author Topic: pumashine's ftz cylinder  (Read 24855 times)

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2014, 04:46:22 PM »
heres a pic of the cylinder sitting in the frame. just wanted to make sure everything lined up. also just wana stare at the quad so close to finished. cant wait to ride man its killing me!!

Offline Pumashine

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2014, 12:43:36 PM »
Now that see your motor it reminded me you will have to back the case studs out 3/16" for the spacer plate. I did not send longer studs. I was not sure if you could just use the long rod piston to get the deck height corrected. Do you have your old piston? You could check too see if the pin heights are the same. The cylinder is a 86 model. As Jerry pointed out in another thread.
Quote from: Jerry Hall;34761
Using the 1986 piston will will require a spacer plate if you use the long rod.  I would not use the 1987 to 1989 piston with the intake port shape you have.  
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2014, 01:03:16 PM »
ok i can do that before i torque them down on final go around. when i get home later i can look at the pistons and the pin hieghts. will post pics of them .

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2014, 02:50:16 PM »
alright here is some pics of the pistons.

Offline Pumashine

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2014, 02:58:59 PM »
I believe to piston with the window cut out is a 87-89 that have a long rod. The next piston arriving on Tuesday has the window in it and can be used with the 86 cylinder. It will not preform as well as the 86 piston but it does not involve removing studs and using the spacer. Since this is just a short term loan why don't you just use the 87-89 piston and no need the the longer studs. Both pistons have holes where they lube the bridge of the 87-89 cylinder. But this 86 cylinder does not have the bridge. I guess if I saw your piston before we started this I would have known you had a long rod.

What size is that piston Pat? If you want to check out the deck height just put it on and see (if its small enough to fit in the bore)
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2014, 03:23:03 PM »
well i didnt think i had a long rod. isnt 86-87 the same height for rods? and 88-89 are the same? mayne im confused on how that works. also the cylinder in the picture is one bore size bigger so it wont work. the piston that your sending is the same as the one in my picture? is the piston gap gona be ok? or set up to the cylinder correctly?

Offline Pumashine

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2014, 04:16:34 PM »
Quote from: patman13mia;34838
well i didnt think i had a long rod. isnt 86-87 the same height for rods? and 88-89 are the same?
Only 86 has the short rod. 87 -89 used the long rod. Your frame is a 86 but the motor is 87-89. The piston I am sending is the same size as the 86 I originally sent you  but it is the 87-89 pin height. You can tell the year by the window cut out on the intake side. The 86 does not have a window. It has a different shape on the bottom skirt (half moon)
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2014, 07:44:39 PM »
ok gotcha. so i have either two options right? i can run the piston you are sending me and run no spacer but performance will be lower. or i can run the piston i have now with the spacer and dowel pims on the cylinder and also longer studs. that will give me the best performance of the two??

Offline Pumashine

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2014, 08:39:49 PM »
Can't say the performance would be lower. I have heard that sometimes swapping the years actually works better. Don't remember what years I was working with at the time but the motor was purring like a kitten. Using multiple gaskets and swapping out studs is not the way to go for a temporary use. Regardless of the performance you should just use the correct piston for the rod to get you by. Swapping studs is not as easy as you would think. I have seen many cases ruined and studs stripped when working with these old motors.
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline Jerry Hall

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2014, 09:48:12 PM »
An "86" piston will usually produce more power than the "87-89" piston but the life of the 86 is much shorter.  The "86" piston is the same as the early CR 250 pistons.  

Honda went to the long skirt and long rod in 1987 to increase the life of the piston.  The 85-86 ATC 250R and the 86 TRX 250R used the piston from the earlier CR 250s.

Most motocross guys that bought CR250s expected to replace the piston every 10 hrs or less while many of the new guys that bought ATCs and TRXs were new to the world of motorsports.  They expected their engine to make as much power as the CRs because they also had a 250 Honda engine.  They also expected for the engines to last for a hundred years regardless how often they cleaned their air filter or what type of crap they dumped into the fuel tank.

Honda was receiving a lot of complaints from the new owners of things that had more than 2 wheels so they changed the piston and connecting rod design with the intentions of increasing longevity and not power. Honda also designed a new head that would run 6-month-old 87 octane fuel.  The 87 and later TRX 250R engines had more power in stock form than the 85-86 stock engines.but it did not come from the long rod and full length skirt, it came from improvements in the port design.  If you put an 86 piston and spacer plate in a 87 to 89 stock engine, it will produce more power.  It is because of the absence of most of the intake skirt on the 86 piston and allows the intake to breath a little better.

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2014, 10:16:37 PM »
ok so ill just run the piston that your sending me then correct?

Offline Pumashine

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2014, 11:03:09 PM »
Quote from: patman13mia;34873
ok so ill just run the piston that your sending me then correct?
Yes, the piston that is set up for the long rod. You should be able to use the stock size base gasket if you are going to run race gas. The reason I sent everything was to get it as close as we can in a hurry. You should be able start it by Wednesday.
Puma 408, Puma 431,  Pilot 412, Puma 431, Mini-tooth 486 Trx450r
89mm  Mini tooth Shearer in frame pipe chromed! With Cascade  Q

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2014, 11:53:21 PM »
yepp always run race gas. and so cool of you to loan me the cylinder. youll get everything back you lent me. im hoping to come down to the dunes the weeknd of 6-8 of june. hope we can meet up with oj and whoever else wants to ride. ill post a thread a week before to build up a group and get some numbers

Offline C-Leigh Racing

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2014, 10:50:46 AM »
Soon as the exhaust port is polished out & the bore man sees it, guess what  :encouragement: :ride::ride:.
Neil
C-Leigh Racing, in memory of Caraleigh Pritchard
Race team for 2015
Chuckie Creech #25 TRX450R, Pro, Pro Am, Pro Am Unlimited
Andrea Creech # 25 TRX450R, Womens (National ATVA EDT)
Andrea Creech #33 TRX350R, Womens (local EDT)

If it aint got a hot weed eater 2 stroke engine, all its good for is a pit bike

Offline patman13mia

pumashine's ftz cylinder
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2014, 11:53:49 AM »
hell yea neil you made my week!! thanks a ton!!

 

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